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[MINUTES] W3C Credentials CG Call - 2018-05-22 12pm ET

From: <kim@learningmachine.com>
Date: Tue, 22 May 2018 16:54:51 -0700
Message-Id: <1527033291300.0.63788@Kims-MacBook-Pro.local>
To: Credentials CG <public-credentials@w3.org>
Thanks to Manu Sporny for scribing this week! The minutes
for this week's Credentials CG telecon are now available:


Full text of the discussion follows for W3C archival purposes.
Audio from the meeting is available as well (link provided below).

Credentials CG Telecon Minutes for 2018-05-22

  1. Introductions/Re-introductions
  2. Announcements and Reminders
  3. Action Items
  4. Work Items
  5. Update on Educational Task Force
  6. Formation of a User Story Task Force
  Joe Andrieu and Kim Hamilton Duffy and Christopher Allen
  Manu Sporny
  Joe Andrieu, Heather Vescent, Chris Webber, Kim Hamilton Duffy, 
  Lucas Parker, Manu Sporny, Kayode Ezike, Christopher Allen, 
  Markus Sabadello, Moses Ma, Adrian Gropper, Andrew Hughes, Andrew 
  Rosen, Ryan Grant, Dave Longley, Chris Boscolo, Lionel Wolberger, 
  John Jordan, Benjamin Young

Manu Sporny is scribing.
Joe Andrieu:  Occupational/Education task force, user stories, 
  status of focal use cases, example will go through that. Finally 
  want to wrap up on best way to use this hour...
Joe Andrieu:  We're not quite a W3C WG, Chairs just want to get 
  some feedback, most effective way to use our time on the call. 
  Any additions to agenda?

Topic: Introductions/Re-introductions

Kayode Ezike:  Hi Kayode, I am currently a masters student at MIT 
  in TimBL's group... focused on Verifiable Credentials, joined the 
  group 3-4 weeks ago.

Topic: Announcements and Reminders

Joe Andrieu:  New Wyoming Blockchain laws...
New Wyoming Blockchain Laws - 
New Wyoming Blockchain Laws - 
Christopher Allen:  Wyoming is defining a "Network Address" that 
  returns a "Public Key"... and "Network Signature" -- DIDs and DID 
  Auth. I'll be attending.
Christopher Allen:  I've been asked to present some generic DID 
  slides -- http://wyoleg.gov/Calendar/20180501/Meeting -- 
  emphasize community as a whole.
Christopher Allen:  I do want to talk w/ them about proofs, 
  beneficial stewardship things
DID and VC slide deck - 
Manu Sporny:  Dropped in link to DIDs and VCs.
Joe Andrieu:  I'll send you the deck from RWoT - good slide from 
  Manu on DIF and IIW and RWoT
Kim Hamilton Duffy:  Yeah, wanted to mention some updates that 
  I've done to minutes generation script.
Kim Hamilton Duffy: 
Kim Hamilton Duffy:  Updated the instructions on publishing the 
  minutes... you need API access to do Twitter stuff, etc.
Kim Hamilton Duffy:  This script will take care of for you... you 
  should be able to execute publishing minutes from start to end. 
  There are two manual parts right now... clipping the audio and 
  cleaning up the minutes.
Kim Hamilton Duffy:  I'm getting through the last run today, then 
  will ask people to alternate in this process - maybe 15-20 
  minutes start to end to publish... not a high committment... 
  little more the first time.
Manu Sporny:  I just wanted to thank Kim profusely for making all 
  of these changes, you've made me very happy. All the changes have 
  enabled others to publish the minutes and operate more like a 
  community. Thank you! [scribe assist by Dave Longley]
Joe Andrieu:  Thanks, Kim! [scribe assist by Dave Longley]
Kim Hamilton Duffy:  Thanks [scribe assist by Dave Longley]
Joe Andrieu:  We're doing a hackathon in July
Joe Andrieu:  Want to get people to join and participate - some 
  interest from DIF and Dan Buchner and DID Hackathon... may be too 
  soon to coordinate on that. Still thinking July 16th... but 
  trying to coordinat ewith Microsoft.
Markus Sabadello:  Quickly about MyData - panel w/ multiple 
  presentations w/ multiple DID implementers, not happening, too 
  much other content, not worth having an entire session about 
  DIDs... but several sessions about DIDs and self sovereignty, 
  maybe some talks about DIDs. Unconference event faciliated by 
  Kaliya. Lots of DID-related content.

Topic: Action Items

Moses Ma:  Good to get together w/ everyone at Consensus - 
  incredibly crowded hotel/venue - will have first virtual 
  conference around DIDs hosted by GSMA Web... average podcast gets 
  20,000 listeners.
Lionel_Wolberger: Two items to update - businesses launching 
  /using DIDs in their organizations.
Adrian Gropper:  Hi, was going to work with you on that.
Lionel_Wolberger: I had some good results being at Consensus - 
  asking help from community, from RWoT in October - Jonathan Holt.
Lionel_Wolberger: Is a Google Sheet acceptable?
Lionel_Wolberger: What action is it connected to in the 
Moses Ma: Some info about the 7/24 virtual conference --  
  Business of Blockchain: Decentralized ID for Distributed Ledgers 
  in the Enterprise Date: 24 July 2018 Virtual Conference hosted by 
  GSMI & Futurelab Consulting www.businessofblockchain.com (website 
  live next week)  About:  Blockchain ID - Decentralized ID for 
  Distributed Ledgers in the Enterprise is a half day, virtual 
  conference delivering mission-critical intelligence for global 
  technology leaders, whether from [CUT]
Adrian Gropper: My email is agropper@healthurl.com
Joe Andrieu:  My first thought was whether this was a work item 
  or action item... not popping out at me, not sure where the 
  genesis of the task happened.
Lionel_Wolberger: 2nd item was paper - did meet with Jan 
  Camenisch - he suggested some changes to the paper, I have one 
  more reader -- then we'll close it.
Lionel_Wolberger: Those are the actions that I have.
Manu Sporny:  Mostly questions on the action items. I'm guessing 
  that at least W3C TPAC being on the agenda is taken care of as in 
  we have time allocated that I saw. We could probably strike that 
  off the action item list. The other thing has to do with prepping 
  for the DID work and I'm stalling on that but hope to pick it 
  back up soon. The next pressing thing... [scribe assist by Dave 
Manu Sporny:  Is figuring out what we're going to do at 
  Rebooting. Specifically around W3C involvement and that kind of 
  thing. A ping to the chairs that we should get together to figure 
  out how to run that week. That's not specifically CCG related but 
  we have work streams criss-crossing at Rebooting and TPAC. 
  [scribe assist by Dave Longley]
Joe Andrieu:  So you and the chairs should get together. [scribe 
  assist by Dave Longley]
Manu Sporny:  Yes. [scribe assist by Dave Longley]
Joe Andrieu:  Let's do that on the Chairs call on Friday.
Christopher Allen: (I can't this week)

Topic: Work Items

Christopher Allen: (In wyoming)
Andrew Hughes:  I'll be starting work on converting DID Primer on 
  ReSpec format. Meeting BC Government folks tomorrow and will 
  start doing that reformatting. If there is pointer to W3C page, 
  that'll be helpful.
Joe Andrieu:  We should add that as a work item
Christopher Allen: Including the intitial bootstrap weirdness?
Manu Sporny:  For anyone of you on the call that are interested 
  in learning spec training stuff. By the end of the call Andrew 
  should have a spec he can work off of. Would this address the 
  spec training issue, chairs? [scribe assist by Dave Longley]
Moses Ma: Can we get a URL for the spec training?
Andrew Rosen:  1:30 ET Wednesday would be perfect. [scribe assist 
  by Dave Longley]
Christopher Allen: +1
Manu Sporny:  Maybe we can do a zoom recording and capture audio 
  and video. [scribe assist by Dave Longley]
Joe Andrieu:  That would be a great resource. [scribe assist by 
  Dave Longley]
Manu Sporny:  We'll do that. [scribe assist by Dave Longley]
Christopher Allen:  I just want to make sure that we're moving 
  over to using action items in CG repo. If you have something on a 
  work item, feel free to use action items, tags, etc
Joe Andrieu: Action items tracked as Github issues: 
Adrian Gropper: I would like to add an item to the agenda for 
  discussion. Does not have to be this week. It's about 
  self-sovereign tech and OAuth2.0
Adrian Gropper: Sorry let me dial in again
Andrew Hughes: Andrew’s Zoom line for Wednesday 13:30 Eastern 
  Daylight   Join from PC, Mac, Linux, iOS or Android: 
Andrew Hughes: Or iPhone one-tap :
Andrew Hughes: US: +16465588656,,2508889474#  or 
Andrew Hughes: Meeting ID: 250 888 9474
Andrew Hughes: International numbers available: 
Adrian Gropper:  I'm involved in a number of threads related to 
  how people access RESTful APIs, including things in the 
  government space (medicare health records)... the issue that's 
  been going on forever is dynamic client registration, which in 
  effect is the interface between Self Sovereign Identity and Self 
  Sovereign Technolgoy, based on the credentials of the person that 
  is registering the app? Or based on the credentials of the app 
Adrian Gropper:  I do think we'll have to take this up in some 
  form or another
Moses Ma: About dapp stores... HTC is very interested in this 
  area. I should ask Phil Chen to join a call to talk about this.
Manu Sporny:  Just a quick note to Adrian. I agree it's an 
  important topic. Even the VCWG at W3C is supposed to provide some 
  kind of insight into how VCs and OAuth2 and OpenIDConnect all fit 
  together. There are also work streams on OCAPs and access 
  control/http signatures. There are like six separate work streams 
  that potentially touch one another. +1 to figuring out how to 
  getting these to play nicely with one another. [scribe assist by 
  Dave Longley]
Ryan Grant:  It sounded to me like Adrian was asking about 
  political last mile stuff -- using DIDs in an App store?
Moses Ma: FYI, I'm helping HTC and drove them to consider DIDs as 
  part of the core technology for their phone. See: 
Adrian Gropper:  It's definitely the last mile, but not sure it's 
  political... want to consider differences between federated ID 
  and self sovereign ID to be political...
Ryan Grant:  What does Apple need a DID to prove in order to 
  figure out if their App Store is a secure place to download apps.
Adrian Gropper:  I'm not worried about Apple... I'm worried about 
  Medicare, the Veterans Administration, where the individual has 
  the right to access their information.
Adrian Gropper:  A RESTful API protected via OAuth is provided to 
  meet right of access. If you want to exercise that right of 
  access, PSD2, and grant access directly to Bob (a third party), 
  so that you are in control of that right of access, but you want 
  BoB's client to be connected directly, there has to be a way to 
  dynamically register Bob's client. Bob's client shouldn't need to 
  be approved by any particular federation/authority.
Adrian Gropper:  You should have the authority under right of 
  access to connect everyone.
Joe Andrieu:  I think that's a great topic, let's dive into it in 
  a future call.

Topic: Update on Educational Task Force

Joe Andrieu: @Manu thanks for the note
Kim Hamilton Duffy:  Talk about educational task force - more 
  general statement/comment on Task Forces - which will lead into 
  next agenda item.
Kim Hamilton Duffy:  For the education task force, we've made 
  progress on essentially two papers... one is the alignment 
  between Open Badges and Verifiable Credentials. That is in a good 
  stage, we're prototyping now.
Kim Hamilton Duffy:  We also have a paper in progress
Kim Hamilton Duffy:  Peer claims, education/occupation space.
Kim Hamilton Duffy:  Were meeting every other week on Thursdays - 
  met with other folks - Nate and Kerri - we decided to switch to 
  async - offline collaboration.
Kim Hamilton Duffy:  Meeting on demand when we need it. When we 
  started the Task Force, the idea was that we had specific 
  technical goals we wanted to achieve, schema alignment, 
  prototyping... use cases, that sort of stuff.
Kim Hamilton Duffy:  I think where we went wrong, we didn't have 
  a single leader which made things fuzzy. It was hard to get 
  ongoing traction - nate and I are into schema alignment, but had 
  less knowledge around use cases.
Kim Hamilton Duffy:  Ultimately, the overhead of running that was 
  outweighing the benefits.
Kim Hamilton Duffy:  We're still making progress, we're switched 
  to more async coordination.
Christopher Allen:  Just wanted to say, we're still trying to 
  work out Task Force concept... the idea is that they are 
  officially approved by Community. We do have people that want to 
  drive thingsn forward, no specific work item, but will propose 
  some of them over time.
Christopher Allen:  Educational Task Force is a good example of 
  that. As things emerge to be ready to propose as work item for 
  whole community, they would do so. That's a good model, but we're 
  still trying to figure out how to do that.

Topic: Formation of a User Story Task Force

Kim Hamilton Duffy:  We wanted to discuss what's going on with 
  User Stories... there is some fuzziness around use cases vs. user 
Kim Hamilton Duffy:  For use cases - at a high level, we have a 
  concrete need to get Use Cases for DID WG to move forward. That 
  is a fine subset of the broader User Stories.
Kim Hamilton Duffy:  Maybe folks thought those were one in the 
  same, but they were not. We're leaning toward having Task Force 
  on User Stories... primary reason is that it's amorphous, need 
  input from people that contribute user stories.
Kim Hamilton Duffy:  Just in my recommendation, there would be a 
  single leader running it, making sure that it keeps going, make 
  decision early on regular meetings, coordinate offline... make 
  sure you have time for it.
Kim Hamilton Duffy:  Something like this is critical - don't 
  overcommit, focus on concrete deliverables, that's a good model 
  to use for the user stories.
Kim Hamilton Duffy:  For people that might be able to lead that - 
  some folks that could lead it - Heather?
Joe Andrieu:  We had this notion of stories - put a page on CG 
  website - even Chairs are a bit confused by that. We do want to 
  embrace voices of folks suggesting Stories to get understanding 
  around what we're doing.
Joe Andrieu:  It did confuse w/ focal use cases... maybe Task 
  Force would be good to tackle the topic.
Markus Sabadello:  There was a discussion on DID Resolution, and 
  separate spec - issue on community repo - had a few calls w/ 
  Dmitri Zagidulin - we're both interested in working on that, 
  skeleton spec and new repo.
Markus Sabadello:  On one hand, we don't know how to write specs, 
  so looking for feedback on that.
Markus Sabadello:  Wonder if task force would be suitable?
Manu Sporny:  +1 To creating a very clear separation between user 
  stories work which is on-going and will continue to progress and 
  the user cases work which is very focused with a deliverable over 
  the summer. [scribe assist by Dave Longley]
Manu Sporny:  Understanding that those two things are very 
  separate but complementary is important. [scribe assist by Dave 
Markus Sabadello: Dmitri Zagidulin and I are are interested in 
  DID resolution, we had a few calls and created a new repo and 
  skeleton doc: https://w3c-ccg.github.io/did-resolution/
Heather Vescent:  Yes, I don't have a clear understanding of how 
  these user stories and use cases relate to one another.
Christopher Allen:  I think the thing is, the DID Use Cases may 
  not go into the spec - only about what's necessary to get the DID 
  WG started.
Christopher Allen:  It's to set it up, to get the work started. 
  That we are able to have the broader discussions once WG is 
  formed. We have to be very careful about how we present it, what 
  we work on, etc.
Christopher Allen:  We have a strange catch 22 - if we put a 
  bunch of things in use cases, we might not be able to form the 
  WG. Any User Stories will be passed on the WG once it starts... 
  but Use Cases are used to start up the WG.
Christopher Allen:  Working on User Stories deals w/ affecting 
  use cases once the WG forms.
Heather Vescent:  I feel like W3C doesn't value the User Stories, 
  this community does values the User Stories, the W3C values the 
  use cases - question of credit, influence, effort.
Heather Vescent:  I think user stories are important - want to 
  think they're going to influence the use cases, but don't want to 
  assume that.
Heather Vescent:  I'd feel more comfortable, there's a lot more 
  defined here, not just for me, process for larger community.
Manu Sporny:  I was going to schedule a call with Heather to go 
  over the entire process. I think you're skeptical about the 
  process and others are as well and that's understandable. There 
  is no thing as "W3C" when it comes to shepherding this through 
  the process. There is no hand off to a completely different group 
  that is "the W3C". This group will take the work forward in the 
  WG. This call will become an "official call". There are no clean 
  lines here. [scribe assist by Dave Longley]
10 Am call... Have a good week.
Manu Sporny:  The way this work happens is amorphous. There are 
  processes but with this many people involved there is no one way 
  things happen. I think we need to figure out how a way to build 
  trust in the community because there are a number of people on 
  the call that are looking for guarantees that are probably 
  impossible to give. But I'd like to talk through this with you 
  and others on a separate call. [scribe assist by Dave Longley]
Heather Vescent: Manu - I do want to do this call, but have to be 
  later this week.
Manu Sporny:  Joe, it might be good to talk about how things feed 
  into the focal use cases, etc. [scribe assist by Dave Longley]
Kim Hamilton Duffy:  Yes, good point Heather, lack of clarity 
  around process involved - other issue, acknowledgement - we had 
  been thinking about User Stories as the DID use case path.
Dave Longley: I'm very in favor of making sure people who 
  contribute get credit for doing so
Kim Hamilton Duffy:  It allows more time to get nuanced... there 
  is not a lot of clarity around that right now.
Dave Longley: And that people should be able to contribute in 
  ways that they can and feel comfortable doing
Dave Longley: So
Joe Andrieu:  Yes, thank you for raising your concerns 
Moses Ma: Here are two we're working on: Use Case #1: In October 
  2017, at least 34 people have been arrested in Egypt as part of 
  an expanding crackdown on the gay and transgender community. The 
  crackdown was enabled by Egyptian police who used social media, 
  gay dating apps and other websites to identify and target gay and 
  transgender activists. If people could use pseudonymous 
  Decentralized IDs linked to a new kind of reputation, it would 
  (a) safeguard the identities of[CUT]
Joe Andrieu:  The best way you can contribute to use cases is to 
  write one up.
Joe Andrieu: 
Joe Andrieu:  So, there is a proposal template - write up the 
  things that are important to you - looking at Kim, Manu, and 
  Drummond - companies investing time and money - use cases that 
  are important, we would like to get your input.
Received on Tuesday, 22 May 2018 23:55:19 UTC

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