W3C

Core Mobile Web Platform Community Group Teleconference

05 Sep 2012

Agenda

See also: IRC log

Attendees

Present
Andrew_Betts, Charles_McCathie_Nevile_(chaals), Dong-Young_Lee, Giri_Mandyam, Jo_Rabin, Josh_Soref, Tobie_Langel, Jean-Fran├žois_Moy, Dan_Sun
Regrets
Chair
Jo_Rabin
Scribe
Josh_Soref

Contents


<trackbot> Date: 05 September 2012

<chaals> [chaals aka Charles_McCathie_Nevile but that isn't a more useful identifier]

Welcome

Jo: welcome to the call
... we're very sorry to lose darobin
... for his chairing, and engineering contributions

<Jo> PROPOSED RESOLUTION: Coremob thanks Robin for his contributions to Coremob, wishes him well in his new undertakings and notes that the remaining chair requests that he completes his outstanding actions :-)

Josh_Soref: +1

RESOLUTION: Coremob thanks Robin for his contributions to Coremob, wishes him well in his new undertakings and notes that the remaining chair requests that he completes his outstanding actions :-)

<chaals> Robin's new position

Pending Actions

<Jo> Pending Review

chaals: i said, don't accept vendor prefixed stuff as meeting any requirement
... the group has accepted that as a resolution

<Jo> https://www.w3.org/community/coremob/track/actions/1 ACTION-1

Jo: yes, it's accepted in the minutes from the F2F

ACTION-2?

<trackbot> ACTION-2 -- Jo Rabin to write a short document on how to get an L0 out and what it might mean -- due 2012-07-02 -- PENDINGREVIEW

<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/community/coremob/track/actions/2

ACTION-4?

<trackbot> ACTION-4 -- Jo Rabin to start a discussion on "what is the meaning of mobile web applications?" -- due 2012-07-02 -- PENDINGREVIEW

<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/community/coremob/track/actions/4

Jo: we resolved on the last call to not have a level 0
... and to rename level 1
... and at&t volunteered to write a document

<Jo> Close ACTION-2

<trackbot> ACTION-2 Write a short document on how to get an L0 out and what it might mean closed

<Jo> Close ACTION-4

<trackbot> ACTION-4 Start a discussion on "what is the meaning of mobile web applications?" closed

Jo: these actions are done
... tobie, can we address all your actions together?

tobie: if you give me a second, i'll finish pushing the docs to the repo

<Jo> https://www.w3.org/community/coremob/track/users/41215 Tobie's Actions

chaals: MC is @ LC

jfmoy: i think we can close it
... the media-queries one

chaals: "ask dap to push html mc to lc"

<chaals> action-7

action-7?

<trackbot> ACTION-7 -- Robin Berjon to ask DAP to push HTML Media Capture to LC -- due 2012-07-02 -- PENDINGREVIEW

<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/community/coremob/track/actions/7

<tobie> https://github.com/coremob/coremob-2012

[ agreement that it's been done ]

action-9?

<trackbot> ACTION-9 -- Tobie Langel to s/full-screen/chromeless/ -- due 2012-07-02 -- PENDINGREVIEW

<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/community/coremob/track/actions/9

action-11?

<trackbot> ACTION-11 -- Tobie Langel to add subsection numbers. -- due 2012-07-02 -- PENDINGREVIEW

<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/community/coremob/track/actions/11

action-16?

<trackbot> ACTION-16 -- Tobie Langel to split section 3.1 per fantasia's suggestion -- due 2012-07-02 -- PENDINGREVIEW

<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/community/coremob/track/actions/16

action-17?

<trackbot> ACTION-17 -- Tobie Langel to add CSS-3 selectors to section 3.1 -- due 2012-07-02 -- PENDINGREVIEW

action-18?

<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/community/coremob/track/actions/17

<trackbot> ACTION-18 -- Tobie Langel to write up an informative note about why Network Information API does not solve the responsive images issue -- due 2012-07-02 -- PENDINGREVIEW

<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/community/coremob/track/actions/18

Jo: let's not do action-18 yet

action-20?

<trackbot> ACTION-20 -- Tobie Langel to include FileWriter or an alternative to the spec -- due 2012-07-02 -- PENDINGREVIEW

<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/community/coremob/track/actions/20

action-26?

<trackbot> ACTION-26 -- Tobie Langel to provide numbers for required sprites/fps in games -- due 2012-07-03 -- PENDINGREVIEW

<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/community/coremob/track/actions/26

action-5?

<trackbot> ACTION-5 -- Tobie Langel to add a conformance section to Level 1 that explains what it means to say "User agents MUST support Foo [FOO]" -- due 2012-07-02 -- OPEN

<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/community/coremob/track/actions/5

action-10?

<trackbot> ACTION-10 -- Tobie Langel to document that we have printing use cases in the UC&R document -- due 2012-07-02 -- OPEN

<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/community/coremob/track/actions/10

action-14?

<trackbot> ACTION-14 -- Tobie Langel to send use cases about overflow scrolling to www-style -- due 2012-07-02 -- OPEN

<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/community/coremob/track/actions/14

action-38?

<trackbot> ACTION-38 -- Tobie Langel to make a fluffy picture out of the architecture described by Robin for the test system -- due 2012-07-03 -- OPEN

<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/community/coremob/track/actions/38

tobie: i'll be seeing darobin at the end of the week
... and will discuss architecture with him then

Jo: i believe we can close all of those, except action-18
... which we probably need to take a resolution on
... and action-5

tobie: i added text for action-5
... re: action-18
... the network api is actually used in some JS impls of responsive images
... i don't really want to write a note that says the opposite of that
... we can close the ones that are pending review, except 18
... and no one has had a chance to review 5

Jo: and we can't close 38

tobie: but i can give an update on 14

Conformance Section

Jo: let's look at action-5

<tobie> http://coremob.github.com/coremob-2012/ED-coremob-20120905.html#conformance

tobie: the first 2 paragraphs are W3C boilerplate
... the 2 last paragraphs are what we should be looking at

<chaals> [looks great to me]

A User Agent conforms to Core Mobile Web Platform 2012 if it conforms to all listed specifications and their dependencies.

However, the inability of a User Agent to conform to one of the listed specification due to limitations of the device does not make the User Agent non-conformant. (For example, a User Agent is not required to support Touch Events on a device devoid of a touch screen.)

tobie: jo, this is text you found and gave to darobin, which comes from a CSS spec

Josh_Soref: "s/listed specification/listed specifications/"

Jo: i have a reservation
... that the UA is referred to as Software distinct from the Software
... if you can't distinguish the UA from the Device
... seems mildly self-contradictory

tobie: i have reservations too
... probably in the same direction as jo's
... it partially defeats the purpose of the group
... which is to make the developer's life easier
... i.e. to make devices rather similar in how they're built

Josh_Soref: I have a mild concern about "and their dependencies"
... there's the mess of JS3/JS5
... Nothing can conform for five years, while browsers implement a complete JS spec
... at which point it is too late to be useful.

Jo: we need a get out of free for this one, don't we?

chaals: i have the same concern as Josh_Soref
... in principle, but think in practice "conforms to a spec" when applied to something like JS or HTML is woolly enough to be workable
... the alternative to accepting the device restriction is requiring that we know when it doesn't work due to the device not having the function
... e.g. where there is no camera, as opposed to no support for getUserMedia

Jo: perhaps there will be some cases where we say
... particularly in the cases of HTTP, HTML, JS
... perhaps we can ignore the device
... can live with the UA-Device separable bit
... tobie, add a caveat "unless otherwise detailed below"
... this is a blanket statement on conformance

<Jo> PROPOSED RESOLUTION: Re ACTION-5 accept Tobie's draft with the addition "unless detailed below" and ignore the device vs User Agent issue touched on by Jo

Josh_Soref: +1

RESOLUTION: Re ACTION-5 accept Tobie's draft with the addition "unless detailed below" and ignore the device vs User Agent issue touched on by Jo

Network Information

tobie: some Responsive Images implementations currently use Network Information today
... but there are groups (Resp Img CG, HTML, WHATWG) working on this
... and something will come out in HTML5
... the other real UC that came up from the Network Information API
... i maintain that there's no reason to have that spec in coremob

Josh_Soref: +1

Jo: i remember having a conversation with you
... i think we should take a resolution that
... we will not include Network Information as it stands in CoreMob 2012

Josh_Soref: +1

<Jo> PROPOSED RESOLUTION: Network Information as it stands will not be in Coremob 2012

<chaals> [no objection]

RESOLUTION: Network Information as it stands will not be in Coremob 2012

<Jo> ISSUE: Follow work of WHATWG, Responsive Image CG and HTML WG and revisit Network Information when appropriate

<trackbot> Created ISSUE-32 - Follow work of WHATWG, Responsive Image CG and HTML WG and revisit Network Information when appropriate ; please complete additional details at http://www.w3.org/community/coremob/track/issues/32/edit .

<Jo> Close ACTION-18

<trackbot> ACTION-18 Write up an informative note about why Network Information API does not solve the responsive images issue closed

<Jo> ACTION-14?

<trackbot> ACTION-14 -- Tobie Langel to send use cases about overflow scrolling to www-style -- due 2012-07-02 -- OPEN

<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/community/coremob/track/actions/14

Overflow Scroll

tobie: we released an iOS facebook app that has more native code
... partly because of scrolling performance issues

<chaals> action-14 due in 2 weeks

<trackbot> ACTION-14 Send use cases about overflow scrolling to www-style due date now in 2 weeks

<tobie> :)

<Jo> ACTION-15?

<trackbot> ACTION-15 -- Robert Shilston to draft a non-normative document with Implementation Notes about how to load assets depending on MQs that can never become true (with help from Robin) -- due 2012-07-02 -- PENDINGREVIEW

<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/community/coremob/track/actions/15

Media Queries

Andrew_Betts: we have a blog post
... which we published in response to this

<tobie> http://labs.ft.com/2012/08/a-proposal-for-preloading-resources-bound-by-media-queries/

<Jo> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-coremob/2012Aug/0040.html email about the FT Labs blog post

Andrew_Betts: the issue is more complex than darobin thought at the F2F
... we can't assume that any MQ will never become true
... we proved this with the device aspect ratio
... but if you hook up a low res + high res display to a mac, the property does change
... we can provide hints to the UA about things that are more likely to change

jfmoy: i was supposed to talk w/ darobin about that
... this blog post came out first
... i agree with Andrew_Betts

Andrew_Betts: in short, we've proposed the creation of a new css clause
... media-preload-hint
... taking a media query and specify a range of media queries that should be preloaded
... it would be backwards compatible
... but whether implementers would do it

Jo: it would take a lot to get it implemented
... i posted a question to rob about this
... isn't there a shortcut to this
... display:none triggers loads (based on mobile-best-practices)

Andrew_Betts: that's effectively a hack
... we're looking for something elegantly
... but yes, you can implement this today using that hack-workaround

tobie: Andrew_Betts / darobin's point is a good one

chaals: In the past Opera did not load resources if the media queries that called for them were not true. They changed that for compatibility with deployed content, which relied on the resource being more-or-less instantly available
... there's value in bringing this request to the HTML WG

Josh_Soref: i'd say CSS

jfmoy: i'd say CSS

Jo: i think we're beyond our remit here
... it's among things that are somewhat underspecified
... like controlling order of loads
... it's like a preemptive load
... this is a question beyond the scope of what we're allowed to do
... shouldn't we ask for clarification of meaning of display:none
... if that's clarified and we ask for conformance to it
... it seems like that's more in scope

jfmoy: i'd really like feedback from UAs
... about that proposal
... i think this is something where a proposal to CSS WG would be helpful

chaals: i think we really need to talk to UA devs
... it seems the requirement here is basically control of loading/preemptive loading
... opera used to not to load non-required elements
... it would then load on demand
... it changed that behavior based on breaking the web
... developers assumed things were preloaded
... i think we should talk to both CSS + HTML, possibly also IETF:HTTP
... load control

tobie: i wanted to point out that our group is clearly not targeted at coming up with solutions for stuff
... however identifying a problem and bringing it to existing groups is in scope

<Zakim> Josh_Soref, you wanted to ask about HTTP2 (push)

<tobie> SPDY

Josh_Soref: The SPDY protocol allows a website to push extra resources - maybe that is what we want...
... at least we should be looking at it.

Andrew_Betts: i think that is a partial solution
... it doesn't provide the same solution that our solution would
... it presupposes server side intelligence
... whereas a media query allows intelligence to the UA
... if the UA has highres/lowres, we want to preload the appropriate orientation-resolutions

Jo: we'll leave action-15 open
... we'll need to take this forward on the list

<Jo> ISSUE: We need to define our requirements for asset loading control (cf ACTION-15)

<trackbot> Created ISSUE-33 - We need to define our requirements for asset loading control (cf ACTION-15) ; please complete additional details at http://www.w3.org/community/coremob/track/issues/33/edit .

Jo: perhaps we can action Andrew_Betts to do this

<Jo> ACTION: Betts to provoke discussion on list of ISSUE-33 [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2012/09/05-coremob-minutes.html#action01]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-49 - Provoke discussion on list of ISSUE-33 [on Andrew Betts - due 2012-09-12].

AOB

Jo: next meeting will be in London
... do we want a call before we meet in London?

<chaals> [+1 to call in 2 weeks]

<tobie> Next week?

Josh_Soref: three weeks = Yom Kippur = No

<Jo> ACTION: Jo to figure out how to do a call between now and F2F [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2012/09/05-coremob-minutes.html#action02]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-50 - Figure out how to do a call between now and F2F [on Jo Rabin - due 2012-09-12].

Jo: would everyone please fill in the registration for the London F2F?

<dan_> Jo: will you send out the agenda for F2F?

<Jo> Registration for F2F

Jo: i will work on an agenda for the F2F

<dan_> needs it for tavel approval

Jo: we might have a call for items for the agenda
... further discussion on tobie 's document
... and darobin's architecture document

<dan_> any update on W3c test framework, status of matrics maker?

Jo: and testing

<tobie> dan_ ask darobin

<Jo> Many thanks to Josh for scribing!

<chaals> [thanks Josh (in perpetuity), Jo, all]

trackbot, end meeting

Summary of Action Items

[NEW] ACTION: Betts to provoke discussion on list of ISSUE-33 [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2012/09/05-coremob-minutes.html#action01]
[NEW] ACTION: Jo to figure out how to do a call between now and F2F [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2012/09/05-coremob-minutes.html#action02]
 
[End of minutes]

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$Date: 2009-03-02 03:52:20 $