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Re: xml:id

From: Timur Mehrvarz <timur.mehrvarz@web.de>
Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2008 01:18:13 +0100
Cc: public-cdf@w3.org, Henri Sivonen <hsivonen@iki.fi>, Maciej Stachowiak <mjs@apple.com>, Eric Seidel <eric@webkit.org>
Message-Id: <2A394E52-F879-47BC-B6BC-02E32723ED6D@web.de>
To: public-xml-core-wg@w3.org

Hello, we have a bit of controversy around xml:id. A link to a  
previous post of mine:
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-cdf/2008Jan/0000.html

Apparently related to this:
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-svg/2007Oct/0113.html

Situation is, that some of our test cases fail, if xml:id is not  
supported for SVG content:
http://www.w3.org/2004/CDF/TestSuite/WICD_CDR_WP1/wicdmatrix.xhtml#mobile10-2

Are you really suggesting for authors to duplicate id and xml:id, in  
order to cope with this?
Thank you.

Timur

On 04.01.2008, at 11:14, Henri Sivonen wrote:

> On Jan 4, 2008, at 04:41, Maciej Stachowiak wrote:
>
>> SVG Tiny 1.2 allows both I'd and xml:id, so content using it is  
>> conforming.
>
>
> SVG Tiny 1.2 is actually worse than just allowing both id and  
> xml:id. SVG Tiny 1.2 makes the IDness of id conditional depending on  
> the presence of xml:id. I think this is a very bad idea and id  
> should be unconditionally an ID.
> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-svg/2007Oct/0086.html
>
> More generally, for deployed Web XML languages (XHTML, SVG and  
> MathML) xml:id is a feature with a cost but no payoff. Browsers will  
> have to continue to support ID semantics for the id attribute in no  
> namespace on XHTML, SVG and MathML attributes forever. Thus, xml:id  
> can only add complexity--not remove it. When the IDness of id has to  
> be supported anyway, xml:id does not add any functionality--it is  
> additional complexity with no upside in the Web context.
>
> Now, one might argue that xml:id is beneficial for generic XML  
> processing like making the XPath id() function work with generic  
> XML. However, the xml:id spec doesn't merely by existing make pre- 
> existing XPath implementations support xml:id. Instead, you have to  
> add an xml:id Processor between the XML processor (aka. XML parser)  
> and the XPath implementation.
>
> The better way to solve the non-Web XML processing problem would be  
> to add a filter that assigns IDness to id instead of an xml:id  
> Processor in the pipeline.
>
> I have implemented such a filter *and* an xml:id Processor. In my  
> experience, implementing a filter that assigns IDness to to id is  
> simpler than implementing an xml:id Processor. (An xml:id Processor  
> is required to perform additional, in my opinion, rather useless  
> operations.)
>
> Validator.nu uses XPath-based Schematron to implement part of HTML5  
> and XHTML5 conformance checking. To make this work on the HTML5  
> side, the HTML5 parser assigns IDness to id. To make this work on  
> the XHTML5 side, there's the aforementioned filter that assigns  
> IDness to id. It works.
>
> Now, one might argue that it is horribly wrong to assign IDness to  
> id without DTD processing or to always assign it regardless of the  
> element that the attribute is on, because someone out there might  
> have an XML vocabulary where the attribute id in no namespace does  
> not have IDness. The argument of wrongness of ID assignment in the  
> absence of a DTD is without merit: Assigning IDness without a DTD is  
> exactly what xml:id does! Moreover, for practical observability like  
> getElementById or the CSS # selector, browsers have to implement de  
> facto IDness for the id attribute in no namespace for Web XML  
> languages.
>
> The argument that someone out there might have an XML language that  
> has an id without IDness is not without merit but is still a mere  
> distraction. After I deployed the unconditional IDness assignment in  
> Validator.nu, I got a bug report that Validator.nu, which is used as  
> the back end of a CML validator (http://cmlcomp.org/validator/) was  
> wrongly complaining about duplicate id attribute values in CML. So  
> yes, it is true that there exists at least one XML language where id  
> is not an ID.
>
> Yet, the existence of a CML as a counter example refuting the  
> assumption that id is always an ID is utterly irrelevant to what to  
> do with deployed Web languages (XHTML, SVG and MathML) or known-as- 
> upcoming Web languages (XBL2). For an app like Validator.nu, it is  
> clear that assigning IDness to id on XHTML, SVG, MathML or XBL2  
> elements is desirable and on CML elements undesirable. What to do  
> with known languages isn't the question. The question really is what  
> to do with unknowns. I currently err on the side of assigning IDness  
> for the unknowns.
>
> But even this is irrelevant to browsers as long as they don't  
> support CML. Browsers could unconditionally assign IDness to id  
> without creating real problems. And at that point, xml:id offers no  
> additional value--just cost.
>
> P.S. I think making id non-ID is a design bug in CML. Calling the  
> attribute 'name' would be more consistent with XML design patterns,  
> but second-guessing CML is pointless and it should just be  
> considered grandfathered.
>
> -- 
> Henri Sivonen
> hsivonen@iki.fi
> http://hsivonen.iki.fi/
>
>
Received on Tuesday, 8 January 2008 00:18:33 GMT

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