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RE: Reasons of using Canvas for UI design

From: Richard Schwerdtfeger <schwer@us.ibm.com>
Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2011 20:56:13 -0500
To: Frank Olivier <Frank.Olivier@microsoft.com>
Cc: paniz alipour <alipourpaniz@gmail.com>, Cynthia Shelly <cyns@microsoft.com>, Steve Faulkner <faulkner.steve@gmail.com>, Canvas <public-canvas-api@w3.org>, "public-canvas-api-request@w3.org" <public-canvas-api-request@w3.org>
Message-ID: <OF03F262A1.34C91073-ON862578CE.00003260-862578CE.000AA42C@us.ibm.com>
Yes, all true. But it has not stopped people from doing things like 
writing DHTML pushbuttons when there is a standard pushbutton. I have 
hundreds of products where people create custom controls just because they 
think they are "cool". My point being that these developers don't care if 
it is more work. They do it because THEY think it is cool. 

Regarding Bespin: yes they switched back to HTML (and accessibility people 
would prefer this) - but they put it out there anyway and for a couple of 
years people did not have access. They did not switch it back to HTML 
content because it was inaccessible. So, for you and me we don't care but 
for someone with a vision impairment or a mobility impairment its use was 
a nightmare and I do know of a product team in IBM that used it for a 
period. During that time a person with a disability was unable to access 
the application. 

Frank, I am sure you must have worked with many product teams in 
Microsoft. The fact that developers do this work is not new. For 
accessibility, you can't have an argument with a developer who has created 
a custom widget like Bespin or some other funky GUI widget. Their 
management chain has approved the UI and off they go. In fact, the first 
time I mentioned canvas to an IBM product team the first word out of their 
mouth was: " Cool, we can create a new custom UI on the existing standard 
controls!" 

In a company the size of IBM accessibility people have neither the 
bandwidth or the clout to tell a product team how to draw their UI. 
Telling them to use a standard control instead is 90% of the time a total 
waste of hot air. If you don't believe me spend more time with product 
teams. What they want to know is: "How can I create my custom UI and make 
it accessible with the least amount of work." 

That is business.

If you are going to work on accessibility you must provide an 
infrastructure to allow the author to do what they want AND make it 
accessible. Telling a developer that it is less work if they use a built 
in HTML feature is a good strategy and people do it all the time in our 
space - but if you cannot convince them you must have the tools.

What you cannot do is use accessibility as a tool to beat people over the 
head to do it right. What invariably happens is the product team will kick 
accessibility off to later versions of the product and that often means 
until there is a vehicle to make their UI component accessible that does 
not change their UI. When this happens, people can't do their jobs and in 
this business climate that spells disaster for the disabled user. If you 
have not noticed there has been a dramatic increase in accessibility 
litigation since the economic collapse. The reasons are obvious.

We need to look beyond simply the technical drivers. We also have to look 
at the business drivers behind product development. 

Rich


Rich Schwerdtfeger
CTO Accessibility Software Group



From:   Frank Olivier <Frank.Olivier@microsoft.com>
To:     Richard Schwerdtfeger/Austin/IBM@IBMUS, paniz alipour 
<alipourpaniz@gmail.com>
Cc:     Cynthia Shelly <cyns@microsoft.com>, Steve Faulkner 
<faulkner.steve@gmail.com>, Canvas <public-canvas-api@w3.org>, 
"public-canvas-api-request@w3.org" <public-canvas-api-request@w3.org>
Date:   07/12/2011 12:18 PM
Subject:        RE: Reasons of using Canvas for UI design



Please note that Bespin is no longer using canvas: 
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-canvas-api/2011AprJun/0123.html 


Also keep in mind that creating 'cooler UI' by drawing it yourself is a 
*lot* of work - anything more complex than a custom checkbox or button is 
a serious amount of work, and you lose any platform benefits. I think that 
developers will stay away from complex custom controls due to 
implementation cost more than anything else - 'more development time' is 
usually the last thing any software project has.


From: public-canvas-api-request@w3.org [
mailto:public-canvas-api-request@w3.org] On Behalf Of Richard 
Schwerdtfeger
Sent: Tuesday, July 12, 2011 6:52 AM
To: paniz alipour
Cc: Cynthia Shelly; Steve Faulkner; Canvas; 
public-canvas-api-request@w3.org
Subject: Re: Reasons of using Canvas for UI design

A good example was the first Bespin release. They should have used a 
contenteditable section but instead they chose to use their own RTE.


Rich Schwerdtfeger
CTO Accessibility Software Group

paniz alipour ---07/12/2011 08:46:17 AM---Pardon Richard but what do you 
mean by cooler UI? Richard you tell me via an example can you tell me

From: paniz alipour <alipourpaniz@gmail.com>
To: Richard Schwerdtfeger/Austin/IBM@IBMUS
Cc: Cynthia Shelly <cyns@microsoft.com>, Steve Faulkner 
<faulkner.steve@gmail.com>, Canvas <public-canvas-api@w3.org>, 
public-canvas-api-request@w3.org
Date: 07/12/2011 08:46 AM
Subject: Re: Reasons of using Canvas for UI design
Sent by: public-canvas-api-request@w3.org
________________________________________



Pardon Richard but what do you mean by cooler UI?

Richard you tell me via an example can you tell me clearer the reasons?

Thanks

On Tue, Jul 12, 2011 at 5:35 PM, Richard Schwerdtfeger <schwer@us.ibm.com> 
wrote: 
Well, if you are going to create flow charts, graphics, etc. you have the 
ability to draw them. There are some developers that may just think they 
can create a cooler UI with it. You can't draw a dynamically changing Pie 
chart with a web form.




Rich Schwerdtfeger
CTO Accessibility Software Group

paniz alipour ---07/12/2011 02:12:30 AM---Why some companies use Canvas 
for creating UI ? On Sun, Jul 10, 2011 at 12:37 PM, paniz alipour <al

From: paniz alipour <alipourpaniz@gmail.com>
To: Richard Schwerdtfeger/Austin/IBM@IBMUS, Cynthia Shelly 
<cyns@microsoft.com>, Steve Faulkner <faulkner.steve@gmail.com>, Canvas 
<public-canvas-api@w3.org>, public-canvas-api-request@w3.org
Date: 07/12/2011 02:12 AM
Subject: Re: Reasons of using Canvas for UI design
Sent by: public-canvas-api-request@w3.org
________________________________________




Why some companies use Canvas  for creating UI ?

On Sun, Jul 10, 2011 at 12:37 PM, paniz alipour <alipourpaniz@gmail.com> 
wrote: 
Hello,

I am looking for some convincing reason that a developer use Canvas for 
designing interactive 

UI on web form instead of common designing web forms.

What's your opinion?

Best Regards

-- 
Paniz Alipour



-- 
Paniz Alipour




-- 
Paniz Alipour 
Received on Friday, 15 July 2011 01:56:57 UTC

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