- From: Nicolas Combelles <nicolas.combelles@apocope.com>
- Date: Mon, 8 Aug 2005 11:05:48 +0200
- To: <public-bpwg@w3.org>
- Message-ID: <E1E23Y6-0006Gz-CW@lisa.w3.org>
Yes, in Europe WML-as-preferred-language handsets (means WML only + poor CSS enabled handsets) are more than 85%. It can greatly vary depending on the level of XHTML/CSS compatibility required by your app. About RSS (you should have created a new topic for this), yes, this is one good mean (as database, SSI, webservices ..) to store content and make it accessible through another interface. But you still have two versions, even if your content is unique. It doesn't solve the questions raised by the MWI. Of course, the good adoption and the public availability of RSS feeds makes this XML stream standard a good one to : - Gives access to your website news through a specific mobile interface with minimum impact on your website. - Create a mobile RSS reader accessing various feeds. But, on the other hand : - RSS is built for editorial purpose, especially for news items. It is not the answer to any type of content. - The web is not a bunch of newspapers, a website isn't limited to it's "content". It is really important to stop focusing on web pages as classic documents. Else we would focus on mobile adapation of only a part of the web. Sure, there is no use to try to adapt very complex websites to a mobile, but do not forget about interactivty and variety. I think a good exercise would be to think of how could .... - One of your favorite blog (or yours). - Your favorite search engine. - Your FAI portal. - Your favorite e-commerce shop. - Your favorite news site. - Your favorite community (forum, chat, social networking) site. [add to the list other main website types I forgot] ... be displayed on your mobile phone. Cheers, Nicolas Combelles Apocope _____ De : public-bpwg-request@w3.org [mailto:public-bpwg-request@w3.org] De la part de marcus saw Envoyé : dimanche 7 août 2005 14:59 À : Ray Anderson; Nicolas Combelles; 'Tammy'; 'Tim Moss' Cc : 'Paul Walsh'; public-bpwg@w3.org Objet : Re: Best Practices document - not best practices Thanks a lot for your feedback, I will start working on a WML version straight away! Out of interest, when you say I should support WML for the mass market I take it that there is still a lot of WML phones out there at the moment? ( you will have to forgive me I have been spoiled by working in Japan where HDML has a tiny coverage ) Is this something that you think is going to change in the near future when the bandwidth increases ? Marcus. http://cellsuite.blogspot.com Ray Anderson <ray@bango.net> wrote: RSS feeds are becoming a popular "add on " to WAP sites, and a nice way to get lots of content to users. I noticed that your site did not work on "Winwap" (www.winwap.com to get it <http://www.winwap.com%20to%20get%20it/> ) but did work on my Nokia 6630. I assume thats because you don't yet support WML (which is essential for the "mass market") Nice service At 09:39 07/08/2005, marcus saw wrote: Reading these posts and more I have come to my own conclusions and have put up a service I think you might find interesting. It is a simple idea and uses the current direction of standard 'web' technologies to overcome the common hurdle of mobile presentation. What technology am I talking about ? Well I am talking about RSS, which in my mind is the perfect solution for quickly providing a mobile version of existing content. RSS is taking off as a popular medium and is being hailed as the 'mailing list killer' on some news articles [1] [2] . Whilst I don't believe the hype that RSS will ever replace content driven web sites, I do believe that it will be widely adopted by the Internet community and will be a great 'middle layer' for providing mobile content. The site I created is a beta to test out this theory. It is free of course, will remain free and does not require registration prior to use. All it does is re-format RSS feeds into pages that can be read by mobile phones. It currently supports XHTML, JHTML and CHTML and I will work to create the correct rendering for any other standard I come across. I have been using the site to get content on my mobile phone whilst I am in Japan, there are plenty of mobile sites here of course but not that many that cater for the English language user and that's the main reason I built this service. I would be interested in any feedback you may have and whether you to can see the benefits of using RSS as a middle layer for multi-channel presentation. 1. http://www.feedforall.com/future-rss-not-blogs.htm 2. http://www.llrx.com/features/rss.htm OK I hope that I have not offended anyone by using this as an opportunity to promote my service but it is meant to be an on-topic, relevant demonstration of the use of RSS. So go to http://www.pixs.jp <http://www.pixs.jp/> on your mobile phone and let me know what you think. Rgds, Marcus. http://cellsuite.blogspot.com <http://cellsuite.blogspot.com/> Nicolas Combelles <nicolas.combelles@apocope.com> wrote: > I think mobile users are different to Web users as print reading was different to Web surfing. Exactly, mobile IS a new media, but a media using "same" IT technologies that PC. Even print can benefit from web technologies : You can have specific CSS for print, but this is for "smart rendering of a printed WEB page", not to create a magazine ad page. So specific "handeld" CSS may be considered to be for "smart rendering of a mobile-displayed WEB page". But creating a real mobile-user-centric application such as weather news or maps, requires more specific design and programming, even if it is still using web technologies. Understanding these two (with a very blurred fronteer) levels (acceptable rendering, and real mobile user experience) is the key. Regards, Nicolas Combelles Apocope -----Message d'origine----- De : public-bpwg-request@w3.org [mailto:public-bpwg-request@w3.org] De la part de Tammy Envoyé : jeudi 4 août 2005 05:33 À : Tim Moss Cc : Paul Walsh; public-bpwg@w3.org Objet : Re: Best Practices document - not best practices Not using redundant information on a page doesn't mean it must deleted or not used on a mobile Web site, but it is only displayed in it's rightful place where it is the main content. I think mobile users are different to Web users as print reading was different to Web surfing. I'd like to read the working drafts posted below so I can add or comment but I don't have access, I was curious if they have already determined a recommendation for page sizes/graphic sizes for an 'optimal' page download wait time. I had an optimal user experience: Using my cell phone with zip entry and a few clicks I was able to get to a weather satellite picture of our county while I was stuck in a building with no power. Most weather sites would have taken time/power download all the unused data as well as be difficult to wade through all the information. Tamara Taylor Tim Moss wrote: > I was quite literally talking about visual design, rather than site > structure which are two different but relevant aspects of 'design' in > this context. > There seemed to be an implication that one could just 'drop' or not > display all the "redundant branding and navigation information" and > then the site would magically be ok on a mobile device. > Even if "just" this could be simply achieved what I'm saying is that > the end result would be pretty horrible, many companies spend a lot of > time and effort getting their site (rightly or wrongly) to look right. > They are not going to follow best practice guidelines that throw all > of this effort away. > When I said > > "However, in recent years where digital media has been embraced by the > artistic community, there are many examples of sites where the > style/design *is* the content." > > I was talking about websites that have been produced by the > artistic/creative community, that have no "information" on them; the > website itself is a piece of electronic/digital art. (thats what I > meant a bit later by 'particular art form' - art doesn't have to live > on the wall of a gallery!) > > If we we to drop all the 'design' and "redundant branding and > navigation" then with these sites you'd be left with a blank page, so > the mobile experience would be pretty poor. > > This is an extreme example, but illustrates the fact that the layout > of the site can add to the user's understanding of it; a site may > convey more information that just the text on the page. > > Going back to Google as an example, google (and surely they know best > what works for them) felt that, as clean and simple their website is, > it is still too complicated for a mobile device, and have given us an > alternative that works better on a mobile. (OK they shouldn't have put > it on a different URL, but then they haven't yet got any Best > Practices to tell them not to!) You've mentioned several times that > the MWI is not about adapting content specifically for mobile devices. > One of us must be misunderstanding something. > For example, the BPWG Charter [1] states: > The guidelines produced by the MWBP Working Group are intended to > enable content to be seamlessly adapted across a range of device form > factors. > the DDWG Charter [2] states: > The mission of the MWI Device Description Working Group (DDWG) is to > enable the development of globally accessible, sustainable data and > services that provide device description information applicable to > content adaptation. > the DDWG homepage [5] states: > The objective of the Mobile Web Initiative is to enable access to the > Web from mobile devices. It is envisaged that this will typically > require adaptation of Web content, which relies on device knowledge.. > The recent BPWG working draft [2] says: > This document specifies best practices to ensure an *optimal* user > experience for people accessing the Web with mobile devices. > which in practice is very unlikely to be achieved without adaptation. > [1] http://www.w3.org/2005/01/BPWGCharter/Overview.html > [2] http://www.w3.org/2005/01/DDWGCharter/ > [3] http://www.w3.org/2005/MWI/DDWG/ > [4] http://www.w3.org/2005/MWI/BPWG/Group/Drafts/MOK/050727 > Tim Moss > CTO > Bango > e: tim@bango.com <?xml:namespace prefix = mailto /> > m: +44 78 8779 4032 > t: +44 12 2347 2823 > w: http://www.bango.com <http://www.bango.com/> Mobile Content World > 2005 > ****************************************************************** > "Come and see us on stand 14 at MCW 2005 Olympia Conference Centre, > London, UK 13th - 15th September 2005" > www.mobilecontentworld.biz <http://www.mobilecontentworld.biz/> > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > *From:* Paul Walsh [mailto:paulwalsh@segalamtest.com] > *Sent:* 01 August 2005 12:05 > *To:* Tim Moss; 'Daniel Barclay'; public-bpwg@w3.org > *Subject:* RE: Best Practices document - not best practices > > 'What is good design’ is a very interesting topic and one that > most people seem to get wrong. > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: public-bpwg-request@w3.org > [mailto:public-bpwg-request@w3.org] On > >> Behalf Of Tim Moss > >> Sent: 31 July 2005 09:59 > >> To: Daniel Barclay; public-bpwg@w3.org > >> Subject: RE: Best Practices document - not best practices > >> > >> > >> Daniel wrote: > >> > If you're talking about the typically large amount of mostly > >> > redundant "branding" and navigation information that > >> > typically appears at the top (and frequently left) of pages: > >> > That's not a tool issue, that's a page design issue (or > >> > possibly a page implementation issue). > >> > >> To many organisations the branding and design of their web > information > >> is extremely important, and they spend a lot of time, money and other > >> resource on these areas of content development. > >> > >> Some regard the design of a site as irrelevant and sometimes slight > >> 'design' driven sites as suffering from the flaw of valuing > 'style over > >> content' > > [PW] Those who regard ‘the design of a site as irrelevant’ don’t > know what they’re talking about when it comes to creating an > online presence that will attract and encourage visitors to > return. These people need to be brought into a classroom and > taught the basics of how to build a meaningful online presence. > Tim, I don’t disagree with you; these people do unfortunately > exist. However, we certainly shouldn’t incorporate this thought > process when creating a best practise unless we use them as case > studies for ‘what not to do’ or ‘how not to do it’. > > Look at the Web Accessibility Initiative > – this is a perfect example of > another W3C initiative with a huge mountain to climb in terms of > changing the mindset of web designers (aka content authors) and > online decision makers. I feel a lot of the foundation work has > already been done by this group; designers are already starting to > rethink and incorporate these best practises. > > Most large corporate websites are driven by marketers/brand owners > who want a 'funky', 'state of the art', 'all singing all dancing' > website because they think it's necessary to attract visitors and > stand out from their competitors. In fact, when you ask these same > marketers what their favourite site is, their answer is usually > 'Google'! Why? Because it's clean, friendly and easy to get the > information you require. > > It has never been proven that lots of fantastic artwork has been > the deciding factor for a visitor to buy from a site. BTW, this is > a real life example of an Operator Portal in the UK. This same > Operator is completely redesigning their Portal from the ground up > as they realise the importance to make it accessible and user > friendly. > > Unfortunately creative design agencies are constantly trying to > create something ‘different’ using technology that they don’t > fully understand, and they sometimes loose sight of what the > customer actually wants. > >> However, in recent years where digital media has been embraced by the > >> artistic community, there are many examples of sites where the > >> style/design *is* the content. > > [PW] Only if visitors aren’t prohibited from reaching the content > because of poor design! Don’t fall into the trap of thinking you > can just resize or adapt the ‘content’ and all will be ok. This is > not true – Web design principles such as logically constructed > information architecture, ease of navigation, readability, > consistency, load time, and look and feel are the most important > factors when building an online presence. > >> > >> Why shouldn't these sites be accessible on mobile devices, by those > >> users who appreciate that particular art form. > > [PW] I’m not sure what you mean by ‘particular art form’. But let > me point out again that people don’t buy from websites because > they like the ‘art’. The only people who enjoy browsing websites > for their ascetics are ‘creative’ people who are visiting those > sites for that reason alone. NB. Websites that have been created > specifically for people who appreciate ‘art form’ could also > potentially discriminate against people who need to use assistive > technologies such as screen readers. This is relevant as we’re > trying to create ‘one web’ (where possible). > >> > >> > >> > Designers apparently think users need a link to everywhere > >> > from every single page (yes, okay, I exaggerate a bit), > >> > instead of just some "breadcrumbs" to show where you are > >> > within the site (and/or larger > >> > document) and a link or two up toward higher-level pages that > >> > provide downward (and sideways) navigation links. > >> > >> Maybe a solution to this is to include (semi-automatically if using a > >> tool) metadata in the markup that denotes these parts of the page as > >> being navigation blocks. This could allow the browser software to > >> choose not to display them with the meat/content. The browser could > >> perhaps implement some hotkey or shortcut mechanism to allow the > user to > >> quickly jump between the navigation and content elements of a page.. > >> > >> Hopefully the site would then still be usable on a mobile device, and > >> wouldn't require a complete redesign. > >> > >> > >> One of the MWI's success criteria is: > >> "User community and Industry adoption of the deliverables." > >> > >> I believe that the content industry (mobile or otherwise) is unlikely > >> adopt the deliverables if it feels that huge amount of redesign > effort > >> is required to comply with the Best Practices, when the end result is > >> design and branding free sites like websites were back in 1996 > > [PW] Let’s not forget that we are not just creating a best > practise for current websites, we are creating a best practise for > future content authoring. We need to assume that some element of > redesign of current websites will be required; otherwise the best > practises won’t encourage any form of design improvements. Most > websites are not built with the small screen in mind, so a > redesign of most websites will be required ‘today’. In future, > content authors will not make assumptions about the size of the > screen and hopefully make the necessary design consideration right > from the start. > > Re ‘design and branding free sites back 1996’ – this is because > the potential of the Web wasn’t realised back then. I had to self > learn how to build websites in ‘95 so I could teach the trainers > at AOL in the UK and there wasn’t a great deal of technology that > created barriers to usability and most people were sceptical about > online marketing. > > It’s important to note that the MWI is about encouraging a best > practise for content authoring where design is at the heart of it > all. It’s not about how to best squeeze or adapt content > specifically for a mobile phone. > > Kind regards, > > Paul > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> Tim Moss > >> CTO > >> Bango > >> > >> e: tim@bango.com > >> m: +44 78 8779 4032 > >> t: +44 12 2347 2823 > >> w: http://www.bango.com <http://www.bango.com/> > >> > >> > >> Mobile Content World 2005 > >> ****************************************************************** > >> "Come and see us on stand 14 at MCW 2005 > >> Olympia Conference Centre, London, UK > >> 13th - 15th September 2005" > >> www.mobilecontentworld.biz <http://www.mobilecontentworld.biz/> > >> > How much free photo storage do you get? Store your holiday snaps for FREE with Yahoo! Photos. Get <http://us.rd.yahoo.com/mail/uk/taglines/default/photos/*http://uk.photos.ya hoo.com/> Yahoo! Photos Ray Anderson T:+44 7768 454545 F:+44 20 7692 5558 ray@bango.com _____ To help you stay safe and secure online, we've developed the all new <http://us.rd.yahoo.com/mail/uk/taglines/default/security_centre/*http://uk. security.yahoo.com/> Yahoo! Security Centre.
Received on Monday, 8 August 2005 09:04:08 UTC