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Re: AWWSW Telecon Tuesday 2011-08-16

From: David Booth <david@dbooth.org>
Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2011 14:35:06 -0400
To: Jonathan Rees <jar@creativecommons.org>
Cc: nathan@webr3.org, AWWSW TF <public-awwsw@w3.org>
Message-ID: <1313519706.1915.5147.camel@dbooth-laptop>
Draft minutes: http://www.w3.org/2011/08/16-awwsw-minutes.html
And below in plain text.



      [1] http://www.w3.org/

                               - DRAFT -


16 Aug 2011

   See also: [2]IRC log

      [2] http://www.w3.org/2011/08/16-awwsw-irc


          DBooth, jar, +1.716.810.aaaa, alanr

          Jonathan Rees



     * [3]Topics
     * [4]Summary of Action Items


      [5] http://masinter.blogspot.com/2011/08/expert-system-scalability-and-semantic.html

   jar: There's stuff on the web and you want to be able to talk about
   it. The role of the URi is that it helps one person communicate ...
   helps you say what stuff you're talking about.
   ... If I make a statement about a document I get from a URI, you may
   want to know what document I was talking about, so I may want to say
   "the one at this URI".
   ... The URI is maybe part of what you need to explain what you are
   talking about.
   ... You might talk about it with a pronoun with some

   dbooth: Some metadata....

   <jar> does the document contain the word "green"?

   jar: At some point there will be enough info about what's being
   discussed to have successful communication. E.g., if I talk about a
   journal article you can narrow it down enough to be able to discuss
   further question, such as "does this article contain the word

   <jar> might be able to identify using sha1, or author/title/date

   <jar> but not adequate always for answering the "green" question

   jar: Author and title may be enough to identify the doc but not
   adequate for discussing aspects of its content.

   alan: The identification process is the step needed to acquire the

   <jar> do I know enough about what they're talking about to be able
   to answer word-containment questions?

   jar: A class of strings would be defined by an invariant, e.g., same

   <Zakim> dbooth, you wanted to ask Isn't identification the ability
   to know which thing is intended?

   jar: But that's not useful, becuse you need an operational test.

   dbooth: You want to confirm the identity enough to ensure correct

   jar: And i verify that by checking: if they say the document
   contains the word green, then I see if it is.

   <jar> class of strings

   <jar> satisfying some invariant

   jar: lets talk about classes of strings instead of documents.
   ... I'm talking about some class of strings, and you don't yet know
   what class it is. I tell you that if it is in this class then it was
   written by this person and has this title.
   ... Or maybe it goes the other way around. I ask you something that
   follows from that. Here's the author-title-date . . .

   <jar> game: Alice gives restrictions (invariants) for a class of
   strings C, she calls the class "C"

   jar: You're giving property invariants for a class of strings. Alice
   calls the class "C" and tells Bill restrictions on members of C.

   <jar> Alice tell Bill these restrictions on members of C

   <jar> Alice queries Bill on some restriction, see whether he answers

   jar: Then Alice queries Bill on some restriction and sees whether
   Bill answers correctly.

   <jar> Alice tells Bill, title, author, date.

   <jar> Alice asks Bill, does every member of C contain the word

   dbooth: Does the fact that it contains "green" logically follow from
   the metadata that Alice gave?

   jar: No, not necessarily. There has to be some other communication
   channel, e.g., the web, the library, background knowledge.
   ... There are many ways that a URI might be used in a restriction to
   help out like this. A URi may be the location where you GET the

   alan: Or a GET may retrieve the hash.

   jar: Or it could be a source of metadata.
   ... I'd like to have 10-20 different relationships between a URI and
   a thing.

   <jar> Scenario A. Entity is a string. URI is related to it ... not
   sure how.

   <jar> Scenario B. Entity is a class of strings. ...

   <jar> TimBL case, scenario B, where URI is the one use to GET

   <jar> Scenario C. Entity is a source of information (HTTP

   alan: Party 1 gives a word, and party 2 says yes or no, the class of
   strings contains that word

   dbooth: you've got two axes: what scenario (A, B, C) and what kinds
   of statements are being made about it?

   jar: We've looked at the special case of using a URI to help tell
   someone what thing you're talking about.
   ... The timbl case is when the URI is adequate to identify the
   document -- the sole piece of information you have about it.
   ... But there are other cases where you may need to consider time,
   or transclusion.

   dbooth: example using only strings?

   <jar> Alice says, S has SHA1 hash H. Then asks Bill, does S contain

   jar: Alice says s has a sha1 hash, then asks bill does s contain

   <jar> similar to

   <jar> Alice says D is a generic resource timbl-identified-by URI.
   Asks, does D contain "green"?

   dbooth: So Alice provides some characteristic about the thing, and
   asks if it has some other characteristic.

   <jar> is being related to URI U predictive of anything?

   dbooth: I think an issue here is that URIs are being used both at
   the meta level (as an arbitrary identifier) and at the concrete
   level as an attribute of something.

   <jar> problem is putting the URI-relates-to-thing opportunity in

   alan: You've got a <URI, thing> pair, and you don't necessarily know
   how they're connected.
   ... And one party knows what thing it is i assume.
   ... Or knows some tru propositions about the thing, and those
   propositions may or may not include the URI.

   <jar> Situations where, if Alice does *not* divulge a URI, then Bob
   willl not be competent

   alan: Party A is in posession of a URI and some questions. They have
   a comm channel. They have some communications of mutual expected
   ... And if the sem web works ideally, then the first thing A would
   say is "the URI is u". B follows its nose. Then A asks "is having
   the word green a property of it". and B says yes. And they convince
   themselves that they've been successful in communicating.
   ... Another scenario: A tells B "you know that person who has red
   hair and lives at so-and-so?" Here's a URI, and give it to another
   person, and that person gives you a URI of the thing.

   dbooth: How does that convince A and B that the've communicated

   <jar> (competence test)

   alan: That second URI allows them to answer any questions about the

   <jar> flickr case: the relationship between the landing page URI and
   the image

   <jar> jamendo: the relationship between the landing page URI and the

   <jar> jamendo says, the music "with" URI U, has license L

   <jar> "with" relationship is .... ?

Summary of Action Items

   [End of minutes]

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David Booth, Ph.D.

Opinions expressed herein are those of the author and do not necessarily
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Received on Tuesday, 16 August 2011 18:35:30 UTC

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