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Minutes from today's call 16-Feb-2009

From: David Booth <david@dbooth.org>
Date: Tue, 16 Feb 2010 10:19:47 -0500
To: AWWSW TF <public-awwsw@w3.org>
Message-ID: <1266333587.2888.965.camel@dbooth-laptop>
http://www.w3.org/2010/02/16-awwsw-minutes.html
and below in plain text.

        -------------------------------

[1]W3C

      [1] http://www.w3.org/

                               - DRAFT -

                                 AWWSW

16 Feb 2010

   See also: [2]IRC log

      [2] http://www.w3.org/2010/02/16-awwsw-irc

Attendees

   Present
          David_Booth, Michael_Hausenblas, Jonathan_Rees, Dan_Connolly

   Regrets
   Chair
          Jonathan Rees (jar)

   Scribe
          dbooth

Contents

     * [3]Topics
         1. [4]Semantics of HTTP
     * [5]Summary of Action Items
     _________________________________________________________

   <mhausenblas> heya

   hi michael

   <mhausenblas> ouch, again your telecon bridge, hm?

   sure

   i'll get it for you

   danc, w'er using my bridge i gave you in private IRC

   danc, shall we switch to zakim?

   <jar> hello... no luck with zakim just now

   <DanC> symptoms?

   <jar> i sent email to amy yesterday, too late i guess

   <DanC> passcode?

   <jar> 'that code is not valid'

   <jar> i'll try again

   <DanC> I just did an instant telcon

   ok, we/ll switch to zakim.

   <mhausenblas> ACTIONS?

   <DanC> trackbot, action-1?

Semantics of HTTP

   <trackbot> Sorry, DanC, I don't understand 'trackbot, action-1?'.
   Please refer to [6]http://www.w3.org/2005/06/tracker/irc for help

      [6] http://www.w3.org/2005/06/tracker/irc

   <DanC> action-1?

   <trackbot> ACTION-1 -- Stuart Williams to send us a link -- due
   2007-12-04 -- CLOSED

   <trackbot> [7]http://www.w3.org/2007/awwsw/tracker/actions/1

      [7] http://www.w3.org/2007/awwsw/tracker/actions/1

   <mhausenblas>
   [8]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/awwsw/http-semantics-report.html

      [8] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/awwsw/http-semantics-report.html

   <DanC> (I can show you the logic I used in
   [9]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/dj9/story.html )

      [9] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/dj9/story.html

   danc: What problem are we solving?

   jar: Expressing semantics of http interaction in rdf.

   <DanC> . [10]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/dj9/httpspeech.html

     [10] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/dj9/httpspeech.html

   danc: http can be described to any level of detail

   dbooth: yes, but we don't yet have agreement on any levels of
   detail. we need to choose both a level of detail and reach
   agreement.

   danc: let's look at
   [11]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/dj9/httpspeech.html

     [11] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/dj9/httpspeech.html

   <DanC> _:some_connection ht:requests (_:some_request).

   danc: in this model, _:some_request has time in it, so two different
   requests might send the same bytes.

   <DanC> information(message, resource, hunk_of_data)

   danc: you could also use a 3-ary relationship.
   ... I also did something on caching, not included in this page

   <DanC> (caching thing is in
   [12]http://www.w3.org/XML/9711theory/HTTP )

     [12] http://www.w3.org/XML/9711theory/HTTP

   jar: to use timbl's notion of FixedResource, you need to express
   time.

   danc: to deal with time in the way I've approached it, you'd say
   that for a FixedResource the max cardinality of :information
   property is 1.

   <Zakim> mhausenblas, you wanted to ask DanC about status code vs
   method interdepencies

   <mhausenblas>
   [13]http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-httpbis-p1-messaging-08#se
   ction-9.9

     [13] http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-httpbis-p1-messaging-08#section-9.9

   michael: can we use the "via" header?

   <DanC> <[14]http://foo> log:uri "[15]http://foo"

     [14] http://foo%3E/
     [15] http://foo/

   michael; (looking at why you use log:uri )

   jar: in the other paper i want to focus on what the server is saying
   about the resource.

   <DanC> (other classes in tim's thing? pointer?)

   dbooth: 301 (Moved Permanently) would seem to have to deal with
   time.

   <DanC> caching thing... [16]http://www.w3.org/XML/9711theory/HTTP

     [16] http://www.w3.org/XML/9711theory/HTTP

   jar: one of my goals was to show how little there is in the
   semantics of http interactions, as a way to motivate more layers.

   <DanC> I think an information property (which is time-oblivious) and
   an information2 (which needs a better name and is time/message
   sensitive)

   jar: e.g., the httpRange-14 rule is murky.

   danc: i think httpRange-14 is a social convention that is followed,
   and agents shoudl follow this convention.

   <jar> Alan R is urging the OBO ontologies never to use 200 for any
   URI in any ontology, because the specs are screwed up, in his view

   <jar> i.e. always use 303 (or #, but Alan doesn't like # for other
   reasons)

   <mhausenblas> Michael strongly disagrees with Alan's views, btw ;)

   <jar> i.e. OBO should follow the TAG's advice, but finds doing so
   inconsistent with 200, since it's unclear what an "information
   resource" is or isn't

   <DanC> . ISSUE: definitions of HTTP semantics (near "information
   resource" / 200 responses) sufficient to satisfy OBO designers, who
   are avoiding 200

   <mhausenblas> +!

   <mhausenblas> +1

   <DanC> ISSUE: definitions of HTTP semantics (near "information
   resource" / 200 responses) sufficient to satisfy OBO designers, who
   are avoiding 200

   <trackbot> Created ISSUE-3 - Definitions of HTTP semantics (near
   "information resource" / 200 responses) sufficient to satisfy OBO
   designers, who are avoiding 200 ; please complete additional details
   at [17]http://www.w3.org/2007/awwsw/tracker/issues/3/edit .

     [17] http://www.w3.org/2007/awwsw/tracker/issues/3/edit

   <DanC> hs:information s:subPropertyOf c:says.

   <mhausenblas> ISSUE-3?

   <trackbot> ISSUE-3 -- Definitions of HTTP semantics (near
   "information resource" / 200 responses) sufficient to satisfy OBO
   designers, who are avoiding 200 -- RAISED

   <trackbot> [18]http://www.w3.org/2007/awwsw/tracker/issues/3

     [18] http://www.w3.org/2007/awwsw/tracker/issues/3

   <jar> informationResource subclassof Principal

   <DanC> "Indirection needs Redirection"
   [19]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/dj9/badmeta.html

     [19] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/dj9/badmeta.html

   <jar> server says (resource says X) does not imply server says X

   jar: I view awww:InformationResource as a subclass of Principal.

   danc: regarding [20]http://neurocommons.org/page/HTTP_Semantics how
   about using messages instead of time? Time is partially ordered in
   http.
   ... There's a :happensBefore relation between messages.
   ... In caching protocols, the second request is causally related to
   the first response, as evidenced in the cache validation header.
   E.g., you get back a picture with etag 100. Then you send another
   request includeing etag 100.

     [20] http://neurocommons.org/page/HTTP_Semantics

   <DanC> [21]http://www.w3.org/XML/9711theory/HTTP

     [21] http://www.w3.org/XML/9711theory/HTTP

   <DanC> ∧ mp < mq2

   danc: but i didn't handle VARY in that caching stuff.

   <DanC> represents(mp2, i, cbody)

   <jar> look at IAO information artifact ontology

   <jar> [22]http://code.google.com/p/information-artifact-ontology/

     [22] http://code.google.com/p/information-artifact-ontology/

   <DanC> ACTION: DanC look at IAO and propose HTTP semantics
   sufficient to address their concerns [recorded in
   [23]http://www.w3.org/2010/02/16-awwsw-minutes.html#action01]

   <trackbot> Created ACTION-35 - Look at IAO and propose HTTP
   semantics sufficient to address their concerns [on Dan Connolly -
   due 2010-02-23].

   <mhausenblas> title for [24]http://www.w3.org/XML/9711theory/HTTP

     [24] http://www.w3.org/XML/9711theory/HTTP

   <DanC> "Specifying Web Architecture with Larch" --
   [25]http://www.w3.org/XML/9711theory/

     [25] http://www.w3.org/XML/9711theory/

   <DanC> Dan Connolly

   <DanC> 9th International World Wide Web Conference

   <DanC> Amsterdam

   <DanC> May 2000

   <DanC> ACTION-23 due + 2 weeks

   <trackbot> ACTION-23 Review IRW and HTTP Ont OWL. due date now + 2
   weeks

   <DanC> looking at
   [26]http://www.w3.org/2007/awwsw/tracker/agenda?duebefore=2010-03-03

     [26] http://www.w3.org/2007/awwsw/tracker/agenda?duebefore=2010-03-03

   <DanC> JAR: yes, next meeting 2 weeks time

   <DanC> (2 March)

   <DanC> ACTION-31: note
   [27]http://neurocommons.org/page/HTTP_Semantics

     [27] http://neurocommons.org/page/HTTP_Semantics

   <trackbot> ACTION-31 Update draft to account for time-dependence of
   describedBy notes added

   <DanC> action-31 due +2 weeks

   <trackbot> ACTION-31 Update draft to account for time-dependence of
   describedBy due date now +2 weeks

   <DanC> action-32 due +2 weeks

   <trackbot> ACTION-32 Add time-oblivious HTTP exchange curation rules
   to draft due date now +2 weeks

   <scribe> scribe: dbooth

Summary of Action Items

   [NEW] ACTION: DanC look at IAO and propose HTTP semantics sufficient
   to address their concerns [recorded in
   [28]http://www.w3.org/2010/02/16-awwsw-minutes.html#action01]

   [End of minutes]
     _________________________________________________________


    Minutes formatted by David Booth's [29]scribe.perl version 1.135
    ([30]CVS log)
    $Date: 2010/02/16 15:17:17 $
     _________________________________________________________

     [29] http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/scribedoc.htm
     [30] http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/2002/scribe/

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-- 
David Booth, Ph.D.
Cleveland Clinic (contractor)

Opinions expressed herein are those of the author and do not necessarily
reflect those of Cleveland Clinic.
Received on Tuesday, 16 February 2010 15:20:16 GMT

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