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Minutes of 28 April 2009 telecon

From: Jonathan Rees <jar@creativecommons.org>
Date: Sat, 9 May 2009 20:12:16 -0400
Message-ID: <760bcb2a0905091712y7dea746dj9c98527b9b04659b@mail.gmail.com>
To: AWWSW TF <public-awwsw@w3.org>
At http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/awwsw/2009/04/28-awwsw-minutes.html and
in plain text below.

W3C
- DRAFT -
W3C AWWSW TF
28 Apr 2009

Agenda

See also: IRC log
Attendees

Present
    +1.216.445.aaaa, TimBL, Alan, Stuart, mhausenblas, jar, dbooth
Regrets
Chair
    Jonathan
Scribe
    mhausenblas

Contents

    * Topics
         1. JAR diagram 5
    * Summary of Action Items

Previous: 2009-04-14 http://www.w3.org/2009/04/14-awwsw-minutes.html

<scribe> Scribenick: mhausenblas
JAR diagram 5

http://esw.w3.org/topic/AwwswNoodlingDiagrams

view-source: http://www.w3.org/2006/gen/ont#TimeSpecificResource

http://www.w3.org/2006/gen/ont#TimeSpecificResource

<jar> tabulator can't view 'ont'

<alanr> another browser on that ontology:
http://owl.cs.manchester.ac.uk/browser/?session=120ecdd6dcf-1284-120ecdd8d27

jar: yes, genont:Version rename to genont:TimeSpecificResource
... added some more stuff now in no 5 (see
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-awwsw/2009Apr/0006.html)

<jar> New in diagram #5: REST 'resource' and REST 'state'

grounding in http://www.w3.org/TR/HTTP-in-RDF/

<jar> Need research: Is a "response" just the bits, or is it an event?
Important distinction.

<jar> We could have both classes: response as bits (can be sent
multiple times), response as event (happens only once).

has part = = dcterms:isPartOf

<timbl> (Stuart, HATEOS?)

<Stuart> Tim: was there along side it: Hypertext As The Engine Of
Application State - one of the so-called REST style architectural
principles

<alanr> http ontology in the manchester browser:
http://owl.cs.manchester.ac.uk/browser/classes/?session=120ecdd6dcf-1284-120ececaee7

<jar> timbl: There's a limit to the extent to which we have to tie
these things [6 spokes] together.

<jar> jar: 6 spokes in diagram #5

<alanr> is there more than a single mention of "network data object" in rfc2616?

<jar> using other words.. i think so

<alanr> what are the other words?

<jar> timbl: inclined not to try to handle all these different things

<timbl> So let's not try t pin down a network data object. We could
say it is the same as aw3:IR but to bring the whole discussion itno
the HTTP community when REST has left it undefined will be big
time-spender.

<timbl> and not necessary.

+1

<alanr> do we agree that we will keep terms out of the ontology if we
aren't going to pin them down?

<alanr> "tim doesn't want to get hung up on definitions" is that true?

<timbl> I think we can work with aw3:IR = gen:GenericResource.

<alanr> "it's a fallacy to think that you can pin down in english what
things mean"

<jar> timbl: definitions are a good idea to a certain extent. fallacy
to imagine you can pin down anything since english words themselves
can be used in different ways.

<jar> timbl: show how it works in a protocol

<alanr> combination of english + mathematics = adequate definition

<jar> timbl: crisply define using mathematics.

<jar> dbooth: This view is consistent with the goal of contrasting
these various models

<jar> timbl: aw3:IR is the same as generic resource

aw3: IR owl:sameAs gen:GenericResource.

<timbl> http://www.w3.org/2006/gen/ont

<timbl> w3:IR owl:sameAs <http://www.w3.org/2006/gen/ont#InformationResource>.

<jar> http://www.w3.org/2006/gen/ont#ContentTypeGenericResource

<alanr_> By design a URI identifies one resource. We do not limit the
scope of what might be a resource. The term "resource" is used in a
general sense for whatever might be identified by a URI. It is
conventional on the hypertext Web to describe Web pages, images,
product catalogs, etc. as “resources”. The distinguishing
characteristic of these resources is that all of their essential
characteristics can be conveyed in a message. We identify this set as
“informati

<alanr_> http://www.w3.org/TR/webarch/

<alanr_> I'd be happy with that :)

Michael: wondering if we should step back and start from
http://www.w3.org/2006/gen/ont

<alanr_> is "the bible" an information resource?

I'd volunteer to draw a diagram with nodes and arrows and then
cross-check with jar#5

<alanr_> pointer to memo?

<alanr_> http://www.w3.org/DesignIssues/Generic.html

<jar> http://www.w3.org/DesignIssues/Generic

<alanr_> http://www.w3.org/DesignIssues/Generic sameAs
http://www.w3.org/DesignIssues/Generic.html ?

<alanr_> "A URI represents a resource" -> "A URI denotes a resource"?

<alanr_> in the memo, there is a list of successively specific
resources and dimensions of genericity. What is the dimension of
genericity from each to the next? From 2->3 it is language? What is it
for 1->2 and 3->4?

<jar> timbl: It's absolutely clear, if you ask cwm, that 2 is not a document

<alanr_> FYI: In IAO there is information_artifact class, and is_about
relationship. information_artifacts are exactly those things that
stand in an is_about relationship to some other entity. We have some
subproperties of is_about well defined, but definition of is_about at
the top level is not yet pinned down.

<alanr_> What we are missing here, IMO, is the is_about relationship

<jar> who has authority to decide that 2 (for example) is not a
timbl:information-resource?

<Stuart> hmmm... integers.... as set of equivalence classes under the
relation "hasTheSameQuantity"... doesn't seem like an information
resource... however, the numerals which stand for particular
equivalence class might well be.

<jar> David: To what extent is it valid to choose whether something
should be considered an IR or not?

<alanr_> and I would ask what is 1 about?

<jar> timbl: Out of order. Let's adjourn or continue.

<alanr_> jar is chair

<alanr_> whoops

<jar> michael is chair.

<alanr_> guess that settles it for me?

<jar> adjourned

<alanr_> and all.

[adjourned]

<alanr_> bye everybody
Summary of Action Items
[End of minutes]
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