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Re: AWWSW telecon Tues 3/31 minutes

From: Michael Hausenblas <michael.hausenblas@deri.org>
Date: Thu, 02 Apr 2009 08:38:20 +0100
To: Jonathan Rees <jar@creativecommons.org>
CC: AWWSW TF <public-awwsw@w3.org>
Message-ID: <C5FA29FC.3588%michael.hausenblas@deri.org>

Jonathan,

Damn that I missed the telecon (had to submit a 90p proposal I'm
coordinating, very sorry) but, hey, I *did* send regrets, right? ;)

However, not sure how I should proceed with [1], esp. re grounding on
TimBL's onto [2]. Read the minutes but frankly I'm not much wiser, now - can
you point me in the right direction, please?

Cheers,
      Michael

[1] http://rdfs.org/ns/http-sem/
[2] http://www.w3.org/2006/gen/ont

-- 
Dr. Michael Hausenblas
DERI - Digital Enterprise Research Institute
National University of Ireland, Lower Dangan,
Galway, Ireland, Europe
Tel. +353 91 495730
http://sw-app.org/about.html
http://webofdata.wordpress.com/


> From: Jonathan Rees <jar@creativecommons.org>
> Date: Wed, 1 Apr 2009 09:11:04 -0400
> To: AWWSW TF <public-awwsw@w3.org>
> Subject: AWWSW telecon Tues 3/31 minutes
> Resent-From: AWWSW TF <public-awwsw@w3.org>
> Resent-Date: Wed, 01 Apr 2009 13:11:49 +0000
> 
> Auto-generated minutes are here:
> 
> http://www.w3.org/2009/03/31-awwsw-minutes.html
> 
> and in plain text below.
> 
> Jonathan
> 
> ------------------------------------------
> 
> W3C
> - DRAFT -
> AWWSW
> 31 Mar 2009
> 
> See also: IRC log
> Attendees
> 
> Present
>      DBooth, TimBL, jar, Alan_Ruttenberg
> Regrets
> Chair
>      Jonathan Rees (jar)
> Scribe
>      jar
> 
> Contents
> 
>      * Topics
>           1. GenericResource
>      * Summary of Action Items
> 
> 
> 
> 
> GenericResource
> 
> <dbooth> http://www.w3.org/DesignIssues/Generic.html
> 
> <dbooth> dbooth: GR doesn't seem to capture which represetnations are
> captured, but REST and ftrr:IR do.
> 
> timbl: Generic resource puts constraints on representations
> 
> if X u:isRepresentationOf G, and r is a representation of X, then r is
> a representation of G
> 
> (X is a u:FixedResource)
> 
> timbl: I should probably fix [the dual use of the word
> 'representation' to mean fixed resource vs. REST representation]
> ... representation invariant = always the same mime type
> 
> dbooth: there are three axes: mime type, language, and time.
> 
> jar: so fixed = invariant along all three axes
> ... Sorry, mistake in the above I think (u:isRepresentationOf etc)
> 
> timbl: Should rename 'representation invariant' to 'content-type
> invariant'
> 
> <dbooth> dbooth: So GR has three axes, but it looks like the names
> used on the third axis (the content type access) should be changed
> from "Representation" to "ContentType".
> 
> <timbl> http://www.w3.org/2006/gen/ont
> 
> jar: I was looking for a property that is the conjunction of all three
> properties - 'X is a fixed resource having as its sole representation
> one of the representations of G'
> 
> <dbooth> dbooth: So the axis should be called 'Content Type', the
> class should be 'ContentTypeInvariant' and the property should be
> called 'isContentTypeInvariantVersionOf'.
> 
> <dbooth> ... Also it looks like u:isVersionOf should be renamed
> u:isTimeInvariantVersionOf to be clearer also.
> 
> <dbooth> timbl: This metadata might be provided by a link header, for
> example.
> 
> timbl: this ontology (GR) would be found via, say, a Link: header and
> is meant to explain some particular resource
> 
> <dbooth> dbooth: Might also define a property u:isFixedVersionOf,
> which would be a subproperty of u:isTimeInVariantVersionOf,
> u:isLanguageInvariantVersionOf and u:isContentTypeInvariantVersionOf.
> 
> jar: OK, right now I don't care what it's called. isFixedVersionOf
> will do
> ... isTimeSpecificVersionOf ?
> 
> <dbooth> Oops, I shoudl have used hte word 'specific' instead of
> 'invariant', so the above should have been:
> 
> <dbooth> u:isTimeSpecificVersionOf, u:isLanguageSpecificVersionOf and
> u:isContentTypeSpecificVersionOf
> 
> isVersionOf = common superproperty
> 
> isFixedVersionOf = common subproperty
> 
> <dbooth> and finally, the conjunction of all three would be
> isFixedVersionOf.
> 
> <dbooth> timbl: but if you know that x isFixedResource of y, then are
> you saying that y *is* a GenericResource? What if it only has one
> language?
> 
> <dbooth> jar: So it's a subclass relation.
> 
> <dbooth> timbl: Yes, not a proper subclass.
> 
> fixed resource is a subclass of generic resource, right?
> 
> timbl: Yes.
> ... Can't distinguish generic resource from information resource.
> 
> alan, we're editing http://www.w3.org/DesignIssues/Generic.html
> 
> alan, http://www.w3.org/2006/gen/ont too
> 
> <timbl> http://www.w3.org/2006/gen/ont
> 
> <timbl> http://www.w3.org/2006/gen/ont.n3
> 
> <dbooth> jar: How do you determine if something is a representation of
> a generic resource? what's the truth criterion?
> 
> <dbooth> ... if you *have* a rep, how do you decide if it is a rep of
> a particular GR?
> 
> <dbooth> timbl: Then you have metadata and data. When you did a
> fetch . . . .?
> 
> <dbooth> jar: But what if you got it some other way?
> 
> <dbooth> ... I want to be able to prove that two URIs name different
> resources. In principle, what's the theoretical test you could make?
> 
> <dbooth> ... Eg for the bible, i could look at the rep and decide if
> its' a rep of the bible.
> 
> timbl: it's one of these open world things
> 
> <dbooth> timbl: Typically when you look at the front cover of a book,
> it says "this printing" and it says 'also available in these languages'.
> 
> timbl: Different nonoverlapping author lists might imply that things
> are different
> 
> <dbooth> timbl: You can tell that they're the same, but very difficult
> to prove different. Like if you have two people. Eg, if you have non-
> overlapping author/publication lists, then it's a different person,
> though sometime's there's a mistake.
> 
> <dbooth> jar: So it's a much less commital notion than the other
> models on the table, such as REST and David's ftrr:IR.
> 
> <dbooth> jar: The question is whether these models are overlapping,
> different, the same, etc.
> 
> <dbooth> ... David at the start of this call was asking how two of
> these in particular compare to each other. Need to explore the
> boundary cases to answer that.
> 
> timbl: Roy was happy to say that people are resources *and* have
> representations
> 
> <dbooth> timbl: Roy's REST was pre-SemWeb, so he was happy saying a
> rep is a rep of a person. Also happy saying a URI for a robot is for a
> control panel, and also a URI email addr that's used indirectly to
> identify a person.
> 
> <dbooth> jar: But we're only looking at documents here, and he did
> model documents.
> 
> timbl: 302 problem
> 
> <dbooth> timbl: I found a bug related to this stuff, it made some
> assumption from a 302 that threw it into a loop.
> 
> jar: Can user-agent affect (some agent's) choice of representation [in
> each model]?
> 
> <dbooth> jar: Another question: can user agent affect the choice of rep?
> 
> <dbooth> dbooth: Good question, because 2616 makes clear that conneg
> can use *anything* in the request to make a choice of rep, but that's
> not captured in this little GR ontology, which only captures axes of
> time, language and content type variation.
> 
> <dbooth> dbooth: This GR ontology captures three of the most important
> axes of variation, even if it does not capture all of the variation
> that 2616 permits.
> 
> timbl: One possibility is to say that there are other axes beyond
> these three
> 
> <dbooth> timbl: We still need 3 axes. If you say this is a
> FixedResource, its independent of not only these three axes, but also
> all other axes. I kinda like that.
> 
> <dbooth> ... So if someone has geographic location of the user, we
> could add that as another dimension, and FixedResource would have the
> same meaning.
> 
> timbl: Not going to have the ontology in two places (the generic
> resources design issues document, and the ont RDF file)
> 
> alan, can't hear you
> 
> <dbooth> jar: For every 200-responding thing, there is an IR, right?
> Wondering if GRs are meant to be idealized.
> 
> jar: Which comes first, the web page, or the generic resource?
> 
> timbl: Some generic resources are not on the web, some are.
> 
> <dbooth> timbl: For lots of things like wikipedia pages, that page
> *is* the IR. For other things, there is a work, like a paper is
> published in multiple places, and they're the same work, whethere we
> call them the same GR I think is splitting hairs. People who work in
> libraries would say there is one work and multiple manifestations.
> 
> <dbooth> (TimBL departs)
> 
> <dbooth> jar: Suppoose yoou have names for documents, and a way to get
> the document given the name. Then nobody would use http protocol. So
> if I mention a particular paper, I'm referring to *that* paper,
> independent of anything the web does.
> 
> <dbooth> ... Eg could put an MD5 in the URI, and then you could check
> to see if it really is the one I meant.
> 
> In this fantasy world, the URI names the document, independent of what
> the web or Internet does.
> 
> You could feed the URI to some magic resolving mechanism to get the
> paper.
> 
> So if these 'names' worked beautifully, why would anyone use an http
> URI?
> 
> In HTTP, the protocol is authoritative for the URI.
> 
> Names would have idealized persistence.
> 
> Resolution protocol: Fetch an octet stream through undetermined means,
> if md5 is right then ok, otherwise try another
> 
> People would like to have names for use in their href=
> 
> dbooth: RDF statements are tied to particular times
> 
> Given HTTP, no way to tell the difference between a mistake an an
> intentional change
> 
> roles: uri owner, statement author, consumer
> 
> in general the consumer won't be able to distinguish "correct"
> resolution from "incorrect" resolution.
> Summary of Action Items
> [End of minutes]
> Minutes formatted by David Booth's scribe.perl version 1.135 (CVS log)
> $Date: 2009/03/31 14:51:09 $
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> Guessing input format: RRSAgent_Text_Format (score 1.00)
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> Default Present: DBooth, TimBL, jar, Alan_Ruttenberg
> Present: DBooth TimBL jar Alan_Ruttenberg
> Got date from IRC log name: 31 Mar 2009
> Guessing minutes URL: http://www.w3.org/2009/03/31-awwsw-minutes.html
> People with action items:
> 
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Received on Thursday, 2 April 2009 07:39:02 GMT

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