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Draft minutes from 2008-03-18

From: Booth, David (HP Software - Boston) <dbooth@hp.com>
Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2008 15:40:11 +0000
To: "public-awwsw@w3.org" <public-awwsw@w3.org>
Message-ID: <184112FE564ADF4F8F9C3FA01AE50009FCE7628AB0@G1W0486.americas.hpqcorp.net>

are at
http://www.w3.org/2008/03/18-awwsw-minutes.html
and also below in plain text.  If they seem hard to follow, it's because the meeting itself was hard to follow.

------------------------------------------------

   [1]W3C

      [1] http://www.w3.org/

                               - DRAFT -

                                 AWWSW

18 Mar 2008

   See also: [2]IRC log

      [2] http://www.w3.org/2008/03/18-awwsw-irc

Attendees

   Present
          +1.781.643.aaaa, dbooth, Alan, Jonathan, stuart, TimBL

   Regrets
          Noah

   Chair
          Jonathan

   Scribe
          dbooth

Contents

     * [3]Topics
         1. [4]Properties that relate an HTTP response to the original
            URI
         2. [5]what is the relation between a http response and the
            thing it denotes
     * [6]Summary of Action Items
     _________________________________________________________



Properties that relate an HTTP response to the original URI

   <jar286>
   [7]http://www.w3.org/Protocols/rfc2616/rfc2616-sec6.html#sec6

      [7] http://www.w3.org/Protocols/rfc2616/rfc2616-sec6.html#sec6

   Jonathan: What I'd like to do today: A property that relates an HTTP
   response to the thing denoted by the original URI that you were
   asking about.

   [8]http://esw.w3.org/topic/AwwswDboothsRules

      [8] http://esw.w3.org/topic/AwwswDboothsRules

   jar: when you do a get, you should learn something about the URI.

   <jar286> about the thing denoted by the URI

   alan: Assuming no conneg, and a fixed MS word doc is sent. how do we
   know how to interpret it? Need some metadata to know it's a word
   doc. (ignoring http spec for the moment). What's a sufficient
   knowledge rep of that? A binary blob with a typing triple.

   <alanr> "alksdkakd;ad" rdf:type mw:word_document

   <alanr> is this the microsoft word document information resource?

   ?blob rdf:type mw:word_document

   <alanr> q: let's define one simple informationr resource,
   independent of http

   <jar286> ?blob foo:has_content "0100100100100101"

   [9]http://example#foo :hasRepresentation ?blob^^mw:microsoft_word

      [9] http://example/#foo

   <alanr> "[10]http://example#foo" :denotes

     [10] http://example/#foo

   oops, no, because the ?blob itself is supposed to have the data
   type.

   <jar286> jar gets alarmed whenever we talk about "information
   resources"

   <jar286> how about information thing

   <jar286> for the purposes of this conversation

   Alan: [11]http://example/mydoc denotes a thing that consists of a
   type and a blob.
   ... or a typed blob.
   ... Now we can talk about what happens with HTTP.

     [11] http://example/mydoc

   <alanr>
   [12]http://office.microsoft.com/en-us/ork2000/HA011382051033.aspx

     [12] http://office.microsoft.com/en-us/ork2000/HA011382051033.aspx

   <alanr> there is a mime type called application/msword

   <alanr> get [13]http://example#foo ->

     [13] http://example/#foo

   <alanr> response has a number of headers

   Alan: Should be GET [14]http://example/mydoc

     [14] http://example/mydoc

   <alanr> mything = that ms word document information thing

   <jar286> (danger: I would predict Tim to reject
   [15]http://example/mydoc leading to a 200 response for the same
   reason that he rejects a number leading to a 200 response - it is a
   mathematical object, not a Fieldingesque 'resource')

     [15] http://example/mydoc

   <alanr> my goal is to get a message that lets me make an exact copy

   <alanr> hi and bye stuart

   <alanr> please call in

what is the relation between a http response and the thing it denotes

   <alanr> it = the URI

   <Stuart> 'origninal'?

   Alan: I have a fixed MS word doc. It's a basically a typed blob.
   ... Want to be able to send an exact copy of that thing over HTTP.
   ... So you would GET from a URI, and you'd get back a mime type and
   an entity body.

   <alanr> [16]http://example#foo

     [16] http://example/#foo

   Alan: I can use the entity body and the mme type to reconstitute the
   typed blob.

   no, to start simple, use this uri: [17]http://example/mydoc

     [17] http://example/mydoc

   (Because you can't GET from a UIRI with a frag ID.)

   So if the document owner puts the document at /mydoc on server
   example, then GET [18]http://example/mydoc will return what you
   need.

     [18] http://example/mydoc

   timbl: In the WebArch, if the MS Word doc is the vitals of the
   society, the way the web's used, you say the URI identifies the
   vitals of the society. You don't say it identifies a word doc.
   What's interesting is that it's the vitals of the socieity. Then a
   GET response is a representation.

   <Stuart> I think that the response 'convey's a representation of the
   resource.

   <jar286> timbl (jar's paraphrase): maybe a word document is not a
   good example because we don't use uris to name the kind of thing
   this discussion started with

   Alan: I was trying to make life simpler -- assuming no conneg.

   <Stuart> exists resource R such that response RESP conveys
   representation REP such that REP represents (stateOf) R (at time of
   request)

   Alan: So I notice if I do a GET on [19]http://example/mydoc the
   entity body and mime type would allow me to reconstitute my object.

     [19] http://example/mydoc

   <Stuart> reconsitute == create a clone?

   Alan: Then we could say that in that case, the relationship of the
   thing denoted by the URI and the response you get is this: you take
   the entity body and the mime type, and you interpret them as the
   blob and type.
   ... What other reasonable responses might there be?

   <Stuart> Alan: The final phrase of what you said tailed of in "that
   thing" and I don't know whether that is a reference to the original
   document or its clone - indexicals!

   Alan: The server could return an HTML doc instead.

   <jar286> "that thing" = the information thing = particular bits +
   type information

   timbl: no, if the doc is a fixed resource, then you cannot give
   something else back.

   <jar286> stopping for homework in 2 minutes

   <Stuart> jar: at best, in webarch, bits+type info are a
   representation (of ??) [the (current?) state of the resource]/

   <Stuart> at best I see that as a type for a set of self similar
   messages.

   <jar286> stuart: but this discussion didn't start with uris, or
   representations, or resources. it started with this information
   thing

   Alan, now supose the server gives a 303 response instead of 200.

   timbl: why do you want a 303?

   Alan: I dont' yet know it is a fixed resource, and I don't know yet
   it is a set of bylaws.

   <timbl> Link:

   Alan: So how would I get that other information?

   jar: If each individual in the group could produce an account (in
   RDF preferably) of relating a GET response to the thing denoted by a
   URI, we could compare them.

   Alan: yes, but there are different kinds of HTTP responses. So if it
   wasn't a fixed resource, there are several things you could get
   back.

   jar: Write as many relationships as you can think of.

   <Stuart> Alan, can you indicate what conclusion you are trying to
   reach...

   dbooth: My rules show the relationship between the thing denoted by
   a URI and a URI declaration, which sounds very much like what you
   are asking for.

   jar: Yes, but i want to see it for documents.

   dbooth: My rules did not cover the document case.

   <Stuart> are we talking about a form of typed literal?

   <Stuart> [i don't mean an RDF typed literal or an XML literal]

   stuart, you can call them something else if you want (not UIR
   declaration), but it is a collection of metadata about the denoted
   resource.

   <jar286> dbooth, sorry to hijack your agendum.

   no prob.

   <jar286> the discussion was *inspired* by your work...

   it's amazing how we're still struggling so much with such basic
   things.

   <jar286> yes

   very hard to get a common starting point.

   <jar286> are you going to close up with rrsagent?

   jar, yes i'll post the minutes, incomprehensible as they may be :(

Summary of Action Items

   [End of minutes]
     _________________________________________________________


    Minutes formatted by David Booth's [20]scribe.perl version 1.133
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Regrets: Noah
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David Booth, Ph.D.
HP Software
+1 617 629 8881 office  |  dbooth@hp.com
http://www.hp.com/go/software

Opinions expressed herein are those of the author and do not represent the official views of HP unless explicitly stated otherwise.
Received on Tuesday, 18 March 2008 15:41:21 GMT

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