W3C home > Mailing lists > Public > public-awwsw@w3.org > March 2008

Draft minutes from 2008-03-04

From: Booth, David (HP Software - Boston) <dbooth@hp.com>
Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2008 12:37:37 +0000
To: "public-awwsw@w3.org" <public-awwsw@w3.org>
Message-ID: <184112FE564ADF4F8F9C3FA01AE50009FCE762884B@G1W0486.americas.hpqcorp.net>

It looks like Jonathan and I each thought the other would send out the minutes.  They are at
and also below in plain text.



      [1] http://www.w3.org/

                               - DRAFT -


04 Mar 2008

   See also: [2]IRC log

      [2] http://www.w3.org/2008/03/04-awwsw-irc


          TimBL, DBooth, AlanR, Jonathan, Stuart

          Jonatnan Rees (jar)

          dbooth, jar


     * [3]Topics
         1. [4]http://esw.w3.org/topic/JonathanRees/Notes
         2. [5]TAG Meeting
         3. [6]DBooth Rules
     * [7]Summary of Action Items

   <jar> [8]http://esw.w3.org/topic/JonathanRees/Notes

      [8] http://esw.w3.org/topic/JonathanRees/Notes


      [9] http://esw.w3.org/topic/JonathanRees/Notes

TAG Meeting

   <inserted> Scribe: dbooth

   <inserted> ScribeNick: dbooth

   jar: We discussed the progress of AWWSW at the last TAG meeting.
   ... Rules really resonated and helped the TAG members. "I was
   worried about this effort. Now I'm not."

   scribe dbooth

   <jar> [10]http://esw.w3.org/topic/JonathanRees/Notes

     [10] http://esw.w3.org/topic/JonathanRees/Notes

   jar: a "potential rep" has the opportunity to be a rep of a
   ... if an http response has not actually been issued by a resource
   ... people have complained about the use of rep. So in an ont we
   need something that might be a rep.

   timbl: i'm not too worried about having a separate name for
   something that could be a rep.
   ... 2 questions: rel btwn an http response and a rep. does it carry
   anything else?
   ... the other q: http spec says it's a rep if the status 200 says
   its a rep.

   <alanr> jonathan calls this a "200 responder"

   <alanr> but it is not heard as such in common discussion - there is
   more to it

   jar: 2616 says a rep is an entity that goes with a 200 response, but
   the entity is not the whole response. it ditches the headers.
   ... also I was trying to capture the discussion a few weeks ago,
   someone was worried that restricting to http responses was too
   limited. wanted a more general description of what a rep might be.
   ... let's table this and move on to rules.

DBooth Rules


     [11] http://esw.w3.org/topic/AwwswDboothsRules

   <inserted> Scribe: jar

   discussion of jar's table & what's a reprsentation tabled until a
   later meeting

   scribenick jar

   the rules are a combination of 3 ontologies - uris, http, web

   <alanr> uri:hasProperRacine doesn't work with open world, if the
   intention is that there is *no* racine for some URIs

   <timbl> ######################## AWWW #########################

   <alanr> or do these rules assume closed world?

   Meant to delete definition of 'resource'

   <Stuart> How does awww:Resource differ from rdfs:Resource and/or

   <timbl> rdf:label "InformationResource" should be rdf:label
   "information resource"

   hasRacine, hasProperRacine explained

   alanr: are you assuming closed world reasoning?

   timbl: the domain statement isn't as constraining as it could be.

   dbooth: the correct domain restriction would reflect that the URI on
   the left of hasProperRacine has a #

   alanr: you need a cardinality restriction in order to say what you

   timbl: but the logic doesn't capture the entire semantics

   <dbooth> dbooth: Right, the domain and range are not as restrictive
   as they theoretically could be.

   <timbl> it never can, so why bother trying to be so experssing in
   the RDFS.

   <alanr> hasProperRacine subProperty hasRacine

   alanr: hasProperRacine is a subproperty of hasRacine

   <alanr> note for future: Need xsd:URINoFragment

   dbooth: hasURI is the inverse of denotes. similar to log:uri

   <timbl> Style: "hasURI" is messy, preefr "URI".

   <alanr> q: is log:uri inferred by n3?

   dbooth: hasDirectGetReply -- grounds this out
   ... hasGetReply allows for forwarding

   alanr: if n3 deduces log:uri relationships then we can just use a
   type [scribe is confused]

   timbl: issues about what has to be asserted or inferred all has to
   do with your test harness

   <alanr> +1

   <alanr> the thing that makes sense is to say, the system can not
   infer x, given y

   timbl: request to separate out the two kinds of material in these

   <timbl> Theer is N3 and cwm

   alanr: if log:uri has been inferred then there should be no need to
   assert hasURI

   <timbl> N3 allows you to write these rules.

   <timbl> Cwm has certian built-ins

   <timbl> as well as an understaning of n3

   alanr: what is the range of a location? looks like it's a URI

   dbooth: it's the location: header value (string)

   alanr: can we change the name, for clarity? a string is not a

   timbl: can we use a separate namespace for headers, mapped
   automatically from header names to ontology URIs?

   <dbooth> timbl: I suggest a separate namespace for htttp headers --
   hh or httph.

   alanr: can I suggest something that strips the "has"?...

   timbl: lots of reasons why no "has" is good

   alanr: it's known that many people are confused by ambiguity of
   leaving out the "has"

   dbooth: will do both

   stuart: no, pick one and stick with it.

   <timbl> label "direct reply"

   <dbooth> alan: please add rdf:labels to these

   <alanr> rdfs:label the other one

   alanr: there's no language, wouldn't it make more sense for [...] to
   be strings?

   timbl: mapping things to strings is a whole lot simpler, for testing
   ... you get a string out of the protocol, then coerce it to a

   <alanr> hasContentType: text/plain@en is not permissible

   timbl: xsd:anyURI is awkward and it's not clear it adds anything

   alanr: i was asking about has-content-type , which is marked as an
   rdfs:Literal, similarly status-code
   ... this would permit things marked with language designators
   ... if we just say it's a string, we rule out nonsensical cases such
   as a content-type that's in a language

   timbl: timbl has an action item to align tabulator's ontology with
   this one

   alanr: tabulator should use its own namespace

   timbl: no, tabulator is trying to be faithful to http

   <timbl> "text/plain"

   <alanr> "text/plain"^xsd:string

   <dbooth> dbooth: if these rules are going to correctly reflect HTTP,
   then the types should match the http spec s much as possible. I'm
   not sure what type the http spec says the value of the content-type
   header is.

   alanr: the ^^xsd:string should be inferred if the range of the
   predicate is specified properly

   <timbl> "text/plain"^^xsd:string

   timbl: no, doesn't work that way

   <Stuart> IIRC typed literals and plain literals are distinct in RDF.

   alanr: have to check that one

   ***** let's plan to leave off at 9:55 so that we can consider next
   steps (homework) *****

   alanr: maybe change the n3 parser to that "string" missing a ^^ is
   impicitly a xsd:string

   <alanr> alan agrees that syntax should match practice

   <Stuart> *if* you make that change how would you then enter a plain

   ISSUE: use of "..." syntax in relation to strings and literatls --

   <Stuart> ...and what would you do about all the existing N3/Turtle

   <alanr> hasDirectGetReply subproperty hasGetReply

   dbooth: next rule is questionable - it says that a 301 means that
   the new location URI names the same resource as the original
   ... this is based on the http spec

   ****** it's 9:55

   dbooth: this is a somewhat difficult area
   ... then what is the purpose of IR if these two things are *not* the

   <alanr> then informationresource not an abstract object?

   stuart: which rule?

   <timbl> ?r1 = ?r2 .

   <dbooth> dbooth: I should give each rule a name, for easier

   <dbooth> stuart: line numbers would be good.

   dbooth: the one whose comment starts "Furthermore, 301, 302, and

   <alanr> +1

   stuart: suggests everyone read and comment on the rule set, via
   email, before next meeting

   <timbl> [12]http://www.w3.org/2006/gen/ont#sameWorkAs

     [12] http://www.w3.org/2006/gen/ont#sameWorkAs

   <alanr> [13]http://www.w3.org/DesignIssues/Generic.html

     [13] http://www.w3.org/DesignIssues/Generic.html

   timbl: different information resources that are the same work -
   please read the design issues note
   ... specific vs. generic IRs -- core to the way the web works

   <dbooth> dbooth: if the two things should *not* be considered the
   same IR, then why not?

   timbl: timbls's goal for next week: figure same-work-as into this
   ... you can have uris that aren't "on the web", or that are for IRs
   but have no reference to the web

   [scribe may have made up 'are for IRs' in the previous. need to be

   <alanr> permanent redirect shouldn't be from permanent to temporary,

   (discussion about 301, 302, and what they say about where the
   resource is, now & later)

Summary of Action Items

   [End of minutes]

    Minutes formatted by David Booth's [14]scribe.perl version 1.133
    ([15]CVS log)
    $Date: 2008/03/04 15:17:31 $

     [14] http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/scribedoc.htm
     [15] http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/2002/scribe/

Scribe.perl diagnostic output

   [Delete this section before finalizing the minutes.]
This is scribe.perl Revision: 1.133  of Date: 2008/01/18 18:48:51
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     [16] http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/

Guessing input format: RRSAgent_Text_Format (score 1.00)

Succeeded: s/in/and/
Succeeded: i/jar: We discussed the progress/Scribe: dbooth
Succeeded: i/jar: We discussed the progress/ScribeNick: dbooth
Succeeded: i/discussion of jar's table/Scribe: jar
Found Scribe: dbooth
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Inferring ScribeNick: jar
Scribes: dbooth, jar
ScribeNicks: dbooth, jar
Default Present: +1.617.253.aaaa, Alan, TimBL, jar, stuart, dbooth
Present: TimBL DBooth AlanR Jonathan Stuart
Got date from IRC log name: 04 Mar 2008
Guessing minutes URL: [17]http://www.w3.org/2008/03/04-awwsw-minutes.ht
People with action items:

     [17] http://www.w3.org/2008/03/04-awwsw-minutes.html

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     [18] http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/scribedoc.htm

David Booth, Ph.D.
HP Software
+1 617 629 8881 office  |  dbooth@hp.com

Opinions expressed herein are those of the author and do not represent the official views of HP unless explicitly stated otherwise.
Received on Tuesday, 18 March 2008 12:38:52 UTC

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