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RE: Draft minutes from 2008-04-01

From: Williams, Stuart (HP Labs, Bristol) <skw@hp.com>
Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2008 09:01:26 +0000
To: "Booth, David (HP Software - Boston)" <dbooth@hp.com>, "public-awwsw@w3.org" <public-awwsw@w3.org>
Message-ID: <9674EA156DA93A4F855379AABDA4A5C611CE3228C7@G5W0277.americas.hpqcorp.net>

Some corrections/ommissions - just two... fairly early on.

Stuart
--
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Registered No: 690597 England

> -----Original Message-----
> From: public-awwsw-request@w3.org
> [mailto:public-awwsw-request@w3.org] On Behalf Of Booth,
> David (HP Software - Boston)
> Sent: 01 April 2008 17:07
> To: public-awwsw@w3.org
> Subject: Draft minutes from 2008-04-01
>
>
> are here:
>  http://www.w3.org/2008/04/01-awwsw-minutes.html
> and below in plain text.
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------
>
>    [1]W3C
>
>       [1] http://www.w3.org/
>
>                                - DRAFT -
>
>                                  AWWSW
>
> 01 Apr 2008
>
>    See also: [2]IRC log
>
>       [2] http://www.w3.org/2008/04/01-awwsw-irc
>
> Attendees
>
>    Present
>           Jonathan_Rees, David_Booth, Stuart_Williams, Alan_Ruttenberg
>
>    Regrets
>           Noah
>
>    Chair
>           Jonathan Rees (jar)
>
>    Scribe
>           dbooth
>
> Contents
>
>      * [3]Topics
>          1. [4]Relationship between a thing and an HTTP response
>      * [5]Summary of Action Items
>      _________________________________________________________
>
>
>
> Relationship between a thing and an HTTP response
>
>    <jar>
>
> [6]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-awwsw/2008Mar/0015.htm
>    l
>
>       [6]
> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-awwsw/2008Mar/0015.html
>
>    jar: It's beginning to make sense to me.
>
>    <jar> [7]http://esw.w3.org/topic/AwwswThingResponseRelationship
>
>       [7] http://esw.w3.org/topic/AwwswThingResponseRelationship
>
>    <Stuart> Re: By RFC2616, 200 means that "an entity corresponding to
>    the requested
>
>    <Stuart> resource is sent in the response"
>
>    <Stuart> I may choose to disagree with the way that is expressed.
>
>    Stuart: My homework conveys the request and the response.
>
>
> [8]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-awwsw/2008Mar/0015.htm
>    l
>
>       [8]
> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-awwsw/2008Mar/0015.html
>
>    Stuart: I'm inclined to think one is asking a question of "the Web"
>    and "the Web" responds.
>    ... So I misread jar's comment.
>    ... I posted a transcript and wrote a little RDF to model the
>    operation and response. Also made a rule with an antecedent to pick
>    out the date, content, etc., and generates conclusions, including
>    that the response conveys the state of the resource.
>    ... What the bits encode is what you want to get at. It's comparing
>    two resource states as being the same.
>    ... And I mentioned a few things that are not concluded, such as
>    that the document is invariant, it is the US constitution, etc.
>
>    Sounds like we might want to use line numbers when we submit code.
>    :)
>
>    alan: Does that URI denote a class or instance?
>
>    Stuart: An instance.
>
>    Alan: The page
>
> [9]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-awwsw/2008Mar/0015.htm
>    l also says "The troop surge in Iraq is over a year underway". Is
>    that part of it?
>
>       [9]
> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-awwsw/2008Mar/0015.html
>
>    Alan seems to be asking what exactly the URI denotes.
>
>    Alan: The document changes over time, e.g., it has a counter.
>    ... But I could make statements about it as containing the
>    constitution.
>
>    dbooth: In an HTTP, you need an actual URI, not just
>    <[10]http://www.usconstitution.net/const.html>.
>
>      [10] http://www.usconstitution.net/const.html%3E.
>
>    Stuart: If you put angle brackets, I mean the resource associated
>    with that URI.
>    ... If it had been the lexical string I would have put
> quotes around
>    it.
>
>    alan: Needs to be the URI string, not angle brackets.

Stuart: I remain to be convinced. I framed the property in terms of the requested resource and
      in the sequel did not seem to need to make a us of literal carrying the URI.

>
>    Jar: That same resource could have multiple URIs, and you might get
>    different responses from different URIs.
>    ... You've said that the resource as some particular state -- a
>    time-sensitive conclusion. It may be true for some period of time,
>    then may no longer be true. That's different from my approach which
>    says there was some time when some particular state was in effect,
>    which will always be true.

Stuart: The range of :hasState is a :TimedResourceState - ie. it includes a timestamp. So
     I think we are thinking along similar lines.

>    dbooth: but hasState doesn't preclude it from also having other
>    states (with different times)
>    ... The word "state" or "hasState" seems misleading,
> because it what
>    you get from the resource may not be the state of the resource.
>
>    alan: This thing has states over time and you get one of these
>    states back. That's not the same as a MS Word doc that doesn't
>    change over time.
>
>    <jar> stuart: We don't know much from the http interaction itself -
>    just that it's a Document
>
>    stuart: point of second rule, if I picked on a W3C TR I would have
>    more than one URI through which i could retrieve a rep of the most
>    recent version. ONe has a date embedded and the other doesn't.
>    They're different resources, but at some times they communicate the
>    same state.
>
>    <jar> dbooth: 'state' is misleading
>
>    <jar> dbooth: it's not the 'state' of the resource, it's just some
>    data that was sent back
>
>    alan: there's no constraint on what a valid rep could be.
>
>    dbooth: that's a feature, not a bug!
>
>    stuart: what is it a representation of? could be of the resource or
>    of the state of the resource.
>
>    <jar> stuart: a representation is a representation of what? the
>    resource or the state?
>
>    alan: i could ask you what time is it, and you could answer
>    "potatoes".
>
>    dbooth: yes, so use a different resource, that is more helpful in
>    telling the time.
>
>    stuart: Roy Fielding says that what makes something
> "resource"ful is
>    its consistency over time. If it isn't consistent, it isn't useful,
>    few will use it, and it will die.
>
>    alan: So that means we don't say what resources are.
>
>    jar: The site owner gets to say how the URI should be used as a
>    name. Since the HTTP protocol isn't saying how the name should be
>    used, you need to look elsewhere.
>
>    dbooth: I partly disagree.
>
>    jar: the only thing you can conclude is that there's some undefined
>    relationship between the resource and the response.
>
>    <jar> 10 minutes left
>
>    dbooth: stuart, why do you provide a rule for comparing states?
>
>    stuart: this is to be able to indicate that two different resources
>    may have the same state even if they are different resources.
>
>    <jar> alanr: if it doesn't change it doesn't have state
>
>    <jar> stuart: sure it does - the state may not change, but
> that's ok
>
>    <jar> shall we continue past 10:00?
>
>    <alanr> k
>
>    k
>
>    <jar> alanr: David, can you unpack a bit your dislike of the word
>    'state'?
>
>    <jar> dbooth: The information coming back is completely arbitrary -
>    unconstrained, the server gets to decide
>
>    <jar> alanr: Then there is no relationship
>
>    <jar> dbooth: Yes, there is, the data was sent back on behalf of
>    that resource
>
>    <Stuart> dbooth... just about... but it also to note that
> in general
>    a resource is not it's current state, that state can
> change AND that
>    juts because 2 resources have the same state (possibly at the same
>    or at different times) does NOT allow you to conclude that they are
>    the SAME resource.
>
>    <jar> dbooth: Well, it's a very weak relationship, but a
>    relationship nonetheless
>
>    <jar> alanr: A relationship between the *name* and something is not
>    one between the thing and the something (e.g. me and my putative
>    hotel room)
>
>    <jar> dbooth: http doesn't tell you very much about the
> relationship
>    between the response and the resource
>
>
> [11]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-awwsw/2008Mar/0016.ht
>    ml
>
>      [11]
> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-awwsw/2008Mar/0016.html
>
>    <jar> dbooth: What you *can* determine is in my response to the
>    homework assignment
>
>    <jar> alanr: Stuart, if someone looked in a state, and didn't find
>    the constitution, then a mistake would have been made, right?
>
>    <jar> stuart: Someone has decided to deploy the resource, and if
>    they decided that is should be the constitution, then yes,
> a mistake
>    would have been made
>
>    <jar> stuart: i haven't published that intent. 3rd parties may
>    observe that it appears to be the us constitution, and revisit it,
>    but maybe it will disappear
>
>    <jar> alanr: If a statement of the type was published,
> then it would
>    be possible for *others* to say a mistake had been made, yes?
>
>    alan: We could have an extra method that says what kind of
> thing the
>    URI denotes, and it could say that it's supposed to be the
>    constitution, and then if the response doesn't contain it, then we
>    could say that it is erroneous.
>
>    stuart: You're not going to find out that intent from http. You
>    might with a Link header that points to a description.
>
>    <jar> it's 10:11. wind up?
>
>    I agree with Stuart.
>
>    <jar> alanr: Maybe this is too complex a case?
>
>    dbooth: in some sense the IR case is more difficult than the non-IR
>    case, because with a non-IR you have what I've been calling a URI
>    declaration that explicitly says what the URI denotes. We don't
>    (yet) have such rules for IRs (though my homework proposes one).
>
>    <jar> alanr: Looks like you don't learn much of anything from a 200
>    response.
>
>    <Stuart> The response to a GET is *NEVER* the reference resource.
>
>    <jar> stuart: Yes you do - you can read the page and it tells you
>    things -
>
>    <jar> jar: But you only know about the responses, not the resource
>
>    <Stuart> no... you get a representation of the current state of the
>    resource.
>
>    <jar> Sure, but is there anything I can say about the resource
>    itself? Not without an independent statement.
>
>    <Stuart> The resource has future state which may or may not be
>    different... you do not get all that future potential.
>
>    <jar> dbooth: Encourage people to look more closely at writings
>    about URI declarations
>
> Summary of Action Items
>
>    [End of minutes]
>      _________________________________________________________
>
>
>     Minutes formatted by David Booth's [12]scribe.perl version 1.133
>     ([13]CVS log)
>     $Date: 2008/04/01 14:29:39 $
>      _________________________________________________________
>
>      [12]
> http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/scribedoc.htm
>      [13] http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/2002/scribe/
>
> Scribe.perl diagnostic output
>
>    [Delete this section before finalizing the minutes.]
> This is scribe.perl Revision: 1.133  of Date: 2008/01/18 18:48:51
> Check for newer version at
> [14]http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002
> /scribe/
>
>      [14] http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/
>
> Guessing input format: RRSAgent_Text_Format (score 1.00)
>
> Succeeded: i/+jar/Topic: Relationship between a thing and an
> HTTP respo
> nse
> Succeeded: s|[15]http://esw.w3.org/topic/AwwswJarSketch1||g
> Succeeded: s/New name: //
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> No ScribeNick specified.  Guessing ScribeNick: dbooth
> Inferring Scribes: dbooth
> Default Present: DBooth, +1.617.253.aaaa, jar, Stuart,
> Alan_Ruttenberg,
>  alanr
> Present: Jonathan_Rees David_Booth Stuart_Williams Alan_Ruttenberg
> Regrets: Noah
> Got date from IRC log name: 01 Apr 2008
> Guessing minutes URL:
> [16]http://www.w3.org/2008/04/01-awwsw-minutes.ht
> ml
> People with action items:
>
>      [15] http://esw.w3.org/topic/AwwswJarSketch1
>      [16] http://www.w3.org/2008/04/01-awwsw-minutes.html
>
>    End of [17]scribe.perl diagnostic output]
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>      [17]
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>
>
> David Booth, Ph.D.
> HP Software
> +1 617 629 8881 office  |  dbooth@hp.com
> http://www.hp.com/go/software
>
> Opinions expressed herein are those of the author and do not
> represent the official views of HP unless explicitly stated otherwise.
>
>
Received on Wednesday, 2 April 2008 09:05:42 GMT

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