W3C home > Mailing lists > Public > public-awwsw@w3.org > November 2007

Minutes from 13-Nov-2007 teleconference

From: Booth, David (HP Software - Boston) <dbooth@hp.com>
Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2007 16:41:16 +0000
To: "public-awwsw@w3.org" <public-awwsw@w3.org>
Message-ID: <184112FE564ADF4F8F9C3FA01AE50009D63695D31F@G1W0486.americas.hpqcorp.net>

. . . are at
and below in plain text.

David Booth, Ph.D.
HP Software
+1 617 629 8881 office  |  dbooth@hp.com

Opinions expressed herein are those of the author and do not represent the official views of HP unless explicitly stated otherwise.



      [1] http://www.w3.org/

  Architecture of the World Wide Semantic Web (AWWSW) Teleconference

13 Nov 2007

   See also: [2]IRC log

      [2] http://www.w3.org/2007/11/13-awwsw-irc


          Noah, TimBL, Stuart, PatHayes, JonathanRees, AlanRuttenberg,


          Jonathan Rees (jar)



     * [3]Topics
         1. [4]In scope, Out of scope
         2. [5]Next Meeting / Homework
     * [6]Summary of Action Items

   <jar> Agenda:

   <jar> Review context

   <jar> Goals & scope

   <jar> Ground rules & organization

   <jar> just dumped it becuause i forgot how to tell rrsagent

In scope, Out of scope

   <scribe> Scribe: dbooth

   jar: Talking about how web arch interacts w sem web for science. We
   came in with some ontological annoyances, and they seem to resonate
   w timbl's goal of formalism for http. What's the web analog for
   doing citation? What can you infer from a 303? What does it mean as
   an RDF assertion? And it goes on from there. How do you know about
   documment stability.
   ... timbl suggested a task group to work on these issues.

   timbl: careful about scope getting too broad. there were use cases
   from lifesci community they weren't sure how to implement -- arch
   wasn't sufficiently clear. Could look at this activity as
   interpreting the semantics in an ontology, so that we're not
   wrangling about which english word we're using. would also allow us
   to write some rules. I thought we could usefully say what 200 means.
   I'm putting skin in the game because an http transaction does
   ... y add to the triple store, and it will issue warnings if
   something looks inconsistent. Alan asked how can you write a program
   to ask if the arch is wrong. Shouldn't go all the way to defining
   the arch, but far enough to write the necessary recipes.

   Alan: And trying to take the line w LSID and others, and clarify the
   argument that you can do everything w http.

   jar: What are the boundaries? Maybe not this month or next month,
   but what are issues that are so trivial that nobody should bring up,
   or should wait until we have more expreience?

   Alan: Some conversatoins to go on the table: For a resource, what is
   a satisfactory representation? Can it be anything? If one
   represeantiaon is a photo, another perhaps shouldn't be a cartoon,
   but a lossy photo might be. Others have said you should be able to
   construct a resource from the rep.
   ... Another issue: Location independence. What happens when it moves
   and the community wants to do something about it -- a resolution
   ... Some questions about what a document is. There's an old style
   sense, of a slowly changing piece of work, and a web phenom like
   news.google.com that don't fit that model but may be called a

   <timbl> Not to re-do TAG work when we cna reference it

   jar: Also, if you have a URI and you get a 200, how do you determine
   the referent? What's the relation between the rep you got and the
   resource? If you only have a rep, how do you determine the resource?

   Noah: What if I have a resource for the time of day in Boston? My
   thought would be that the interaction w http 200 does not offer the
   promise of reconstructing the resource. Rather, to some fidelity you
   get a rep.

   timbl: Some of these questions we haven't really addressed before.
   Others have more overlap w existing TAG work, but may need to
   formalize them for lifesci and reexplain.

   <Zakim> timbl, you wanted to say that paths forward include: a set
   of best practices to be foldedinto as a TAG finding; suggestions on
   missing functionality and possible implementation

   <Stuart> given a TAG concensus ... I could#

   timbl: There's a need to ask about metadata about a data source.
   Maybe write that up and liaise w http WG.

   alan: another issue is what to say about time and rdf. Keeps coming

   <Zakim> alanr, you wanted to ask another issue is what to say about
   time and rdf?

   jar: Document metadata issue is coming up in our group. LSID allows
   you to go from a URI to either a rep or metadata. There are a few
   people in our group saying "we solved all this a few years ago and
   don't want to hear about them". It would be nice to have a story for

   pat: Need to distinguish between problems to solve and need for
   better exposition.

   <alanr> ack

   <Zakim> alanr, you wanted to mention issue of imprecision of
   specification of 303 see also - can we expect RDF?

   <Stuart> +1 to what Pat said

   alan: Other issue: question of predictability, when we're looking
   for metadata. When we do a 303, we'd like it to be obvious that RDF
   should be there with some basic things in it. Perhaps a description
   of the resource, usage spec. Can we be more precise aobut what
   should be there?

   <jar> i'm chair & have been forgetting to dequeue -- not used to
   this! sorry

   <Zakim> timbl, you wanted to suggest that in scope is the question
   of showing how anything you can do with LSID is done with HTTP URIs,
   but that the issue of LSID being unnecessary and

   <jar> i see, dbooth is doing acks for me. thanks - I need to learn
   how to do this

   timbl: There's a tag issue and finding saying "just use http". So in
   scope for this group would be explaining and embelishing how to use
   http. This may help in the struggle to say why LSID and others are

   <jar> we don't need to evangelize, but we do need to know how to
   answer their questions

   alan: Need to give them a good explanation of how they can do what
   they want in HTTP. Also: how do you know how many representations
   there are in a resource? Should there be a way? Also: How to figure
   out if ssomething is a rep versus a resource? Also: Content location
   headers. Would be nice to have an explanation for them.

   timbl: Makes no commitment that things won't change with time, but
   does have cache expiry date. Regarding time, every now and then
   people ask about it, and there's this rathole and people think it's
   broken if it doesn't have time in it. But the arch is that to the
   first order, it doesn't have time. But expiry headers ... http has
   its own notion of time.

   <Stuart> Re: Content-Location header: see RFC 2616 section 14.14

   timbl: But out of scope for us would be new model of time -- one of
   the many ways -- that's a huge thing. Reasonable for us: Demonstrate
   existing http system.

   dbooth: Should come up w a list of topics to discuss.

   timbl: I propose esw wiki.

   jar: It's very slow to run.

   <scribe> ACTION: timbl to ask SysTeam about moving esw to mediawiki
   [recorded in

   <Stuart> BTW: 2616 speaks a lot about entities which are
   'respresentation' like things rather than 'resource' like things.

   alan: Easy to move content if using mediawiki.

   Noah: Open to public write?

   <Zakim> dbooth, you wanted to comment about giving a story to
   LSID/other folks

   dbooth: I don't think we will ever convince the LSID folks. Trying
   to do so will merely fan the fires.

   <jar> ACTION: jar to compile list of candidate topics for this group
   based on today's meeting [recorded in

   dbooth: Another topic sort of mentioned: the need for citation, a
   constant (fixed) byte string.

   timbl: Maybe we make an FAQ w answers?
   ... From explaining things more, to how do you do specific things,
   to things that we havent' covered yet.
   ... Should do issue handling? FAQs could be regarded as issues also.

   Stuart: tracker has been helpful for preparing agendas.
   ... But tracker only assigns actions to a closed group.

   timbl: Could have somebody represent the public and take on their
   action items.

   <alanr> big win for tracker is the keeping of the mail stream around
   an issue. I hope to integrate this into the wiki at some point

   Stuart: If somebody new comes it's a real headache.

   <alanr> tracker is the least of problems if someone new comes ;-)

   jar: FAQ is a good idea, but an ontology would be a separate item.

   Stuart: When do we start needing a charter and normal WG behaviors?

   Noah: I think we can keep it loose as long as we avoid areas where
   IP/patent policy would come into play. Ontology is the only
   worrisome aspect.

   <timbl> Open only to people in one or other group?

   dbooth: If this group is the intersection of lifesci IG and TAG
   members, haven't we already agreed to W3C patent policy?

   <patH> Please lets not set out to get to recommendation. Let an
   existing WG do that hassle.

   jar: I think of an ontology as an appendix to AWWW. Maybe for
   version 2.

   timbl: I regard this as being part of the TAG work. Suppose we
   require that anyone involved... maybe a new wiki ito say unless
   you've signed the IPP you should not contribute. Every wiki has a
   license, and you've agreed to the patent policy.

   alan: Modify the "save page" to add patent policy agreement.

   timbl: Need to login w open ID.

   alan: Moderation would help also -- not an excessive burden.

   <alanr> mediawiki can be set to approve new logins

   <scribe> ACTION: timbl to discuss wiki patent policy issues w ralph
   and folks. [recorded in

   <alanr> +1

   <alanr> should we have some reading homework?

   Stuart: Post minutes to awwsw list?

   RESOLUTION: Minutes will be posted to awwsw list

Next Meeting / Homework

   <Stuart> Oh yes... need to post agenda's as well.

   Alan: All should read jonathan's note:

     [10] http://sw.neurocommons.org/2007/uri-note/

   <timbl> [11]http://www.w3.org/DesignIssues/Generic

     [11] http://www.w3.org/DesignIssues/Generic

   <patH> Meeting time might be an issue. I'm sometimes in California,
   and it would be 6am there...

   timbl: I wrote a design issues doc a long time ago.

   <jar> ACTION: jar to revise URI note by 11/20 [recorded in

   <timbl> [13]http://www.w3.org/2006/gen/ont

     [13] http://www.w3.org/2006/gen/ont

   timbl: Also, not linked is an ontology.

   <alanr> [14]URI Note

     [14] http://sw.neurocommons.org/2007/uri-note/

   <Stuart> rev <40 have broken html - terminally broken for IE, but
   Mozilla is more forgiving.

   timbl: fairly raw, but defines in n3 relationships in the generic
   resources document

   <timbl> Content-Type, Contenet-location

   Alan: Familiarize yourself with RFC 2616? Send out a note if there
   are parts particularly relevant.

   <alanr> [15]Tim's ontology of resources

     [15] http://www.w3.org/2006/gen/ont

   timbl: Content-Type, Contenet-location have come up the most in

   Stuart: 'entity" comes up.

   timbl: HTTP spec is not grounded -- no distinction between a person
   and a web page.

   Stuart: Some of the headers are entity headers and some are about
   the resource.

   <timbl> [16]http://www.w3.org/DesignIssues/diagrams/arch/follow.png

     [16] http://www.w3.org/DesignIssues/diagrams/arch/follow.png

   <alanr> [17]Design issues re: Generic resources

     [17] http://www.w3.org/DesignIssues/Generic

   <alanr> [18]Tim's doodling about follow your nose

     [18] http://www.w3.org/DesignIssues/diagrams/arch/follow.png

   Alan: Another topic: How do sparql endpoints fit into this story?

   <timbl> Stuart, maybe background fro trans images in in browser

   <timbl> WFM

   Stuart: How do third-party accounts of a given thing fit in?

   <jar> 2616 resource = "network data object or service"

   <patH> That png image has 5 kinds of line in it. ANy guide to
   intended meanings?

   Alan: Difference between usage spec (or URI declaration) and other
   statements about a resource.

   <timbl> Annotation servers, etc

   <alanr> [19]Architecture of the World Wide Web, Volume One

     [19] http://www.w3.org/TR/webarch/

   <alanr> +1 to social architecture being a huge part of this

   timbl: A lot of the questions I heard in the HCLS mtg last week were
   about "how do we trust that?" What happens when its 404? A lot of
   them were social questions. So we'll have to write a lot about how
   to hold a domain name in the public good. A lot of the arch is the
   arch of organizations rather than computers.
   ... So we may explain the social side -- technical patterns and
   social patterns.

   <alanr> I'll be there 14th-16th at least

   Pat: I'll be in California mid-Dec to early Jan, so 6am Pacific may
   be inconvenient for me.

   <alanr> [20]RFC 2616

     [20] http://www.faqs.org/rfcs/rfc2616.html

   <jar> can someone point me to a W3C meeting HOWTO?

   <jar> too late? can't rewrite history.

   s/or shall i?//

   s/too late? can't rewrite history.//

Summary of Action Items

   [NEW] ACTION: jar to compile list of candidate topics for this group
   based on today's meeting [recorded in
   [NEW] ACTION: jar to revise URI note by 11/20 [recorded in
   [NEW] ACTION: timbl to ask SysTeam about moving esw to mediawiki
   [recorded in
   [NEW] ACTION: timbl to discuss wiki patent policy issues w ralph and
   folks. [recorded in

   [End of minutes]

    Minutes formatted by David Booth's [25]scribe.perl version 1.128
    ([26]CVS log)
    $Date: 2007/11/13 15:44:01 $

     [25] http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/scribedoc.htm
     [26] http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/2002/scribe/

Scribe.perl diagnostic output

   [Delete this section before finalizing the minutes.]
This is scribe.perl Revision: 1.128  of Date: 2007/02/23 21:38:13
Check for newer version at [27]http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002

     [27] http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/

Guessing input format: RRSAgent_Text_Format (score 1.00)

Succeeded: s/Jonathan/Alan/
Succeeded: s/y add/... y add/
Succeeded: s/ and give them credibility//
Succeeded: s|Homework|Next Meeting / Homework|
Succeeded: s/rrsagent. help//
Succeeded: s/dbooth, the agenda is://
Succeeded: s/oops. Agenda://
Succeeded: s/logger, pointer?//
FAILED: s/i see, dbooth is doing acks for me. thanks - I need to learn
how to do this//
Succeeded: s/what is best ack practice?//
Succeeded: s|[28]http://sw.neurocommons.org/2007/uri-note/40||
Succeeded: s|All shold read jonathan's note.|All should read jonathan's
 note: [29]http://sw.neurocommons.org/2007/uri-note/|
Succeeded: s/rev will be > 40 by next week//
Succeeded: s|The URI will be [30]http://sw.neurocommons.org/2007/uri-no
Succeeded: s/ok, dbooth, will you wind this up with zakim et al?//
Succeeded: s/or shall i?//
FAILED: s/or shall i?//
Succeeded: s/<jar> ok//
FAILED: s/too late? can't rewrite history.//
Succeeded: s/sorry about that, i thought you had gone//
Succeeded: s|s/i see, dbooth is doing acks for me. thanks - I need to l
earn how to do this//||
Found embedded ScribeOptions:  -final

     [28] http://sw.neurocommons.org/2007/uri-note/40
     [29] http://sw.neurocommons.org/2007/uri-note/
     [30] http://sw.neurocommons.org/2007/uri-note/


FAILED: s/or shall i?//
FAILED: s/too late? can't rewrite history.//
Found Scribe: dbooth
Inferring ScribeNick: dbooth
Default Present: jar, DBooth, Alan, Stuart, PatH, TimBL, Noah
Present: Noah TimBL Stuart PatHayes JonathanRees AlanRuttenberg DBooth
Regrets: Norm
Got date from IRC log name: 13 Nov 2007
Guessing minutes URL: [31]http://www.w3.org/2007/11/13-awwsw-minutes.ht
People with action items: jar timbl

     [31] http://www.w3.org/2007/11/13-awwsw-minutes.html

   End of [32]scribe.perl diagnostic output]

     [32] http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/scribedoc.htm
Received on Tuesday, 13 November 2007 16:43:16 UTC

This archive was generated by hypermail 2.3.1 : Tuesday, 6 January 2015 20:21:05 UTC