Re: De-zippering and the fundamental issue of target users

I actually find Web Audio incredibly easy to write to, and I think it is a
wild disservice to developers to presume that we don't need to make it
particularly easy for them.  Sure, if you're wanting to develop an
8-bit-style game, you'll probably use a library; If you're just loading
music tracks and sound effects, I don't see that much benefit to imposing
someone else's structure.


On Fri, Nov 8, 2013 at 12:31 AM, Marcus Geelnard <mage@opera.com> wrote:

>  2013-11-07 23:02, Lonce Wyse skrev:
>
>
> Dear All,
>
>     I think the issue is really one of target users which has not really
> been articulated well.
>     My own feeling is that the vast majority of web, music, and game
> developers who will benefit from the new capabilities aren't going to be
> writing much Web Audio API code themselves, and will instead be using
> libraries, frameworks, sounds, etc. developed by "power users" of the API.
> The implication is that the API should be providing raw capability, and
> leaving the "make it easy for people" task to "middleware" developers.
>
>
> +1
>
> /Marcus
>
>
>
> - lonce
>
>
>
> On 11/7/2013 7:31 PM, s p wrote:
>
> + anybody that has a little bit experience in handling audio knows about
> this problem.
>
>
> 2013/11/7 s p <sebpiq@gmail.com>
>
>>  What about if you want - on purpose - to create a pop by brutally
>> changing a gain value? I have used his technique to do some glitch-like
>> percussions, or sound effects like vinyl crackling sound.
>>
>>  + that has a little bit experience in handling audio knows about this
>> problem.
>>
>>
>> 2013/11/7 Chris Wilson <cwilso@google.com>
>>
>>> Chris (Rogers)' reasoning behind implementing this way to begin with was
>>> that most users simply don't know about this at all.
>>>
>>>  My personal feeling on this is that there are some scenarios that
>>> automatically applying dezippering on makes sense, and some it does not.
>>>  For example, it would make sense to dezipper volume control; however, it
>>> does not make sense to dezipper frequency control.  This leads me to think
>>> that it might be good to apply to gain.gain.value, but not to
>>> oscillator.frequency.value, for example.
>>>
>>>
>>> On Thu, Nov 7, 2013 at 3:51 AM, Marcus Geelnard <mage@opera.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> 2013-11-07 12:23, Chris Lowis skrev:
>>>>
>>>>  Hi!
>>>>>
>>>>> There's a task for me to look into how "dezippering" is performed in
>>>>> Webkit and to explain how and why we do it.
>>>>>
>>>>> I've put together a quick demo to show the effect of dezippering
>>>>>
>>>>> http://blog.chrislowis.co.uk/demos/dezippering/
>>>>>
>>>>> And made some notes on how it is implemented on this ticket:
>>>>>
>>>>> https://github.com/WebAudio/web-audio-api/issues/76
>>>>>
>>>>> I think it's open for debate whether we clarify dezippering (I think
>>>>> I'd prefer to use the term "parameter smoothing") in the spec, and all
>>>>> of the parameters to which it applies by default, or whether we move
>>>>> to remove mention of it altogether and perhaps add an advisory note
>>>>> about preventing glitches by using exponentialRampToValueAtTime() for
>>>>> example.
>>>>>
>>>>> For that reason, I haven't prepared a PR. Perhaps we can discuss it
>>>>> here first and I can prepare one later.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>  In general I prefer not to have too much magic going on behind the
>>>> scenes.
>>>>
>>>> The automatic smoothing (dezippering) in Web Audio reminds me of when
>>>> progress bar smoothing logic was added to Windows Vista. In an attempt to
>>>> create a more pleasant experience for the user, the new implementation left
>>>> developers unable to control the progress bar the way they wanted to [1]
>>>> (e.g. reaching 100% progress was almost impossible without fooling the API
>>>> by utilizing known quirks in the underlying progress bar smoothing
>>>> implementation).
>>>>
>>>> Let's not repeat that mistake. Unless there are strong use cases for
>>>> automatic parameter smoothing that can not be handled using explicit
>>>> interfaces, I'd prefer dropping it in favor of explicit interfaces.
>>>>
>>>> /Marcus
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> [1]
>>>> http://stackoverflow.com/questions/1061715/how-do-i-make-tprogressbar-stop-lagging
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>>
>>>>> Chris
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Marcus Geelnard
>>>> Technical Lead, Mobile Infrastructure
>>>> Opera Software
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>  --
>>
>> *Sébastien Piquemal *
>>
>>  -----* @sebpiq*
>>   ----- http://github.com/sebpiq
>>   ----- http://funktion.fm
>>
>
>
>
> --
>
> *Sébastien Piquemal *
>
>  -----* @sebpiq*
>   ----- http://github.com/sebpiq
>   ----- http://funktion.fm
>
>
>
>
> --
> Marcus Geelnard
> Technical Lead, Mobile Infrastructure
> Opera Software
>
>