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Re: Proposal for fixing race conditions

From: Marcus Geelnard <mage@opera.com>
Date: Fri, 05 Jul 2013 09:54:05 +0200
Message-ID: <51D67B9D.5090705@opera.com>
To: Chris Rogers <crogers@google.com>
CC: Robert O'Callahan <robert@ocallahan.org>, Joseph Berkovitz <joe@noteflight.com>, "public-audio@w3.org" <public-audio@w3.org>, Dave Herman <dherman@ccs.neu.edu>, "Mark S. Miller" <erights@google.com>
Chris, I still fail to see why we shouldn't try to remove the raciness 
of AudioBuffers (I don't think that "it's usually not a problem" is a 
strong enough argument). Could you please explain?

As I see it, we're currently developing a Web standard and we have every 
opportunity to fix any shortcomings right now.

/Marcus


2013-07-04 21:21, Chris Rogers skrev:
>
>
>
> On Wed, Jul 3, 2013 at 10:09 PM, Robert O'Callahan 
> <robert@ocallahan.org <mailto:robert@ocallahan.org>> wrote:
>
>     On Thu, Jul 4, 2013 at 12:14 PM, Chris Rogers <crogers@google.com
>     <mailto:crogers@google.com>> wrote:
>
>         For any practical and real-world use cases using the API,
>         there aren't really any problems any more than already exist
>         today with raciness of asynchronous callbacks/event-handlers.
>          We already live in a world where XHR completions,
>         setInterval/setTimeout, requestAnimationFrame, file/blob async
>         requests, receiving responses from web workers, events from
>         HTMLMediaElement, and many others can all occur in
>         unpredictable orders and at unpredictable times.  Even
>         something like rendering the contents of a video stream from
>         <video> into a canvas and then reading the pixels back is
>         going to involve lots of raciness in terms of exactly what
>         frame you're reading at any given time.
>
>
>     The nondeterminism arising from those APIs is limited in carefully
>     specified ways. For example, when drawing a <video> into a canvas,
>     the frame may be chosen nondeterministically, but you never get
>     half of one frame and half of the next, or whatever else happens
>     to be in the framebuffer while you're reading it. Likewise, the
>     ordering of HTML5 task dispatch is nondeterministic, but also
>     carefully constrained. In particular, each task executes as an
>     atomic unit and is not interleaved with other tasks.
>
>         We should discuss very specific real-world use cases because I
>         think we're in pretty good shape here.
>
>
>     Suppose someone writes the following code:
>       var audioBuffer =
>     audioContext.createBuffer(1,10000,audioContext.sampleRate);
>       var audioBufferSourceNode = audioContext.createBufferSource();
>     audioBufferSourceNode.start(audioContext.currentTime + 0.1);
>       for (var i  = 0; i < 10000; ++i) {
>         audioBuffer.getChannelData(0)[i] = ...;
>       }
>
>
> This is an extremely contrived example, and is not even close to 
> real-world calling patterns and use cases.  With any of the racy APIs 
> I mentioned above, there are dozens of ways to write buggy code that 
> make assumptions about timing and order of async callbacks which 
> produce unpredictable behavior.
>
> I would be much more concerned if the example you showed actually 
> illustrated a calling pattern that anybody would actually use in the 
> real-world.
>
> In the two years since the Web Audio API has been used by many 
> developers large and small, this type of issue you're describing has 
> simply never come up.  We're talking about developer experience on a 
> range of devices, browsers, and multiple operating systems: 
> Mac/Windows/Linux/ChromeOS/Android/iOS
>
>
>     The spec doesn't say what happens in this situation.
>
>
> First of all I repeat that this is not a sensible calling pattern that 
> developers ever use, but what's the worst that can happen?  A jangled 
> audio stream emanating from the speakers?  Yes, this is true, but 
> there are uncountable ways that any API including this one can be 
> misused to create a mess of sound.
>
>     That's probably because with the Webkit/Blink implementation, as I
>     understand it, almost anything can happen. On a fast-enough
>     machine, most of the time, the sound will probably play as
>     expected. On a slow machine, or if you hit a GC or a page fault,
>     or if the memory subsystem is particularly lazy, you could get
>     zeroes interspersed with the data you wanted. The unpredictability
>     of this code (especially given it "usually works"), is a big problem.
>
>
> We're talking about real-time systems here.  Performance issues can 
> come up already with the ScriptProcessorNode and the Mozilla audio 
> data API.  Depending on how fast the machine is and what other 
> activities it's doing, GC, etc. there can be gaps, stutters, and 
> glitches with small buffer sizes, etc.  Additionally, if you mix in 
> setTimeout with a ScriptProcessorNode or the audio data API you can 
> get all kinds of raciness and jankiness with regards to the timing of 
> musical events.  I consider that to be a mis-use of the APIs and a bad 
> way to write audio code, but there's nothing stopping developers from 
> mixing these APIs together and creating these kinds of messes.
>
> Actually, that's why the Web Audio API is mostly based around 
> processing in its own thread using native code, to minimize these 
> types of issues which occur with the ScriptProcessorNode and the 
> Mozilla audio data API.  It helps insulate the developer from GC and 
> other unpredictable activity on the main JS thread.  I think that's a 
> strong aspect of its design.
>
> In the end, all the way down at the driver level which all browsers 
> must talk to, a continuous audio stream is supposed to be delivered to 
> the hardware.  But there are potentially racy things that can happen 
> here because we're dealing with producer/consumer models with DMA 
> engines, ring or double buffers, with client code feeding the buffer 
> which the DMA engine is right on the cutting edge of consuming.  Yes 
> glitches can happen here too and can vary depending on system stress, 
> memory paging activities, etc.
>


-- 
Marcus Geelnard
Technical Lead, Mobile Infrastructure
Opera Software
Received on Friday, 5 July 2013 07:55:15 UTC

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