- From: Rich Schwerdtfeger <richschwer@gmail.com>
- Date: Thu, 1 Dec 2016 13:05:12 -0600
- To: ARIA Working Group <public-aria@w3.org>
- Message-Id: <607F5D9B-7DD0-4896-B3F9-4C8C0638B474@gmail.com>
web:
http://www.w3.org/2016/12/01-aria-minutes.html <http://www.w3.org/2016/12/01-aria-minutes.html>
text:
https://www.w3.org/2016/12/01-aria-minutes.html,text
[1]W3C
[1] http://www.w3.org/
- DRAFT -
Accessible Rich Internet Applications Working Group Teleconference
01 Dec 2016
See also: [2]IRC log
[2] http://www.w3.org/2016/12/01-aria-irc
Attendees
Present
jongund, Janina, Joseph_Scheuhammer
Regrets
Chair
Rich
Scribe
jongund
Contents
* [3]Topics
1. [4]Comment from Karl Groves
2. [5]Testable Statements
* [6]Summary of Action Items
* [7]Summary of Resolutions
__________________________________________________________
<Rich>
[8]https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-aria/2016Nov/006
1.html
[8] https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-aria/2016Nov/0061.html
<scribe> scribe: jongund
<Rich>
[9]https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-aria-admin/2016N
ov/0007.html
[9] https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-aria-admin/2016Nov/0007.html
RS: ARIA DPUB aria module went to CR
... Wehn will it be published
MC: Aiming for the 13th
RS: Excellent
<Rich>
[10]https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-aria/2016Nov/00
24.html
[10] https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-aria/2016Nov/0024.html
RA: ARIA in HTML is out for review
<Rich> [11]https://www.w3.org/TR/2016/WD-html-aria-20161121/
[11] https://www.w3.org/TR/2016/WD-html-aria-20161121/
JG: I will look at
RS: How do we create action items?
MC: There is no distinction
<clown> [12]https://github.com/w3c/html-aria/issues
[12] https://github.com/w3c/html-aria/issues
MC: You have to go to the GitHub user interface to do it
... We can add people to contributors
RS: Who is in the list?
... We can add comments
MC: DO we want individual comments or group comments
JG: I can make a wiki
MC: I think we should use tracker
<Rich> ACTION: Jon create wiki with feedback on aria-html.
others contribute to it. [recorded in
[13]http://www.w3.org/2016/12/01-aria-minutes.html#action01]
[13] http://www.w3.org/2016/12/01-aria-minutes.html#action01]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-2128 - Create wiki with feedback on
aria-html. others contribute to it. [on Jon Gunderson - due
2016-12-08].
RS: What product do we associate that with
<clown> action-2128
<trackbot> action-2128 -- Jon Gunderson to Create wiki with
feedback on aria-html. others contribute to it. -- due
2016-12-08 -- OPEN
<trackbot> [14]http://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/actions/2128
[14] http://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/actions/2128
MC: We should leave it unassociated right now
... We should stop using tracker with ARIA in its name
... How about Misc. product
<MichaelC> trackbot, associate action-2128 with product-56
<trackbot> action-2128 (Create wiki with feedback on aria-html.
others contribute to it.) associated with product-56.
Comment from Karl Groves
<Rich> [15]https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/486
[15] https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/486
RS: We need to have a response, I did respond
... We feels host language should have precedence
... The host language determines what is allowed and what is
not
... Looking at his last comment on "...not possible", the host
language should determine, not ARIA
JS: Maybe
<clown> <input type="text" role="spinbutton">
JS: I thought he had a deeper claim that LABEL should win over
all ARIA
... SPIN Button example
... Are you going to write the spec about all the do or do nots
RS: Right but a spin button can be a container for...
JS: People have done this to make a left, right, up and down to
make a spin button out of a text box
RS: The host language needs to limit it, not ARIA
... ARIA says that the host language can restrict what roles
can limit
JS: Lests find it and make sure it says that
JN: It's linked in the GitHub issue "Host general conflicts"
... The link is wrong though
... Section 7.5
... I disagree that we should allow host language restrictions,
I think ARIA always winning would make things simplier
RS: .... reading the spec...
... I think we already address this
... If there is a problem it should be discussed with the host
language working group
... Do you think the ARIA spec text addresses his point?
... Here is an instance where he is wrong
... A WYSIWYG that can add a radio button and its label
JS: You are editing the label
RS: I think this should be done in the host language and we
provide for that
... Any other ideas?
JS: You are using Javascript to repurpose an element to
something else
... ARIA in general should win
RS: We have provisions in the ARIA spec to deal with this
... Any other comments?
... We need to render a decision
MC: I am not sure how to use Github for consensus
... Never clear if it is a group decisions or an individual
Janina: You want consensus by the working group on the wording
<Rich> Proposal: In general the ARIA working group believe that
if the author has gone to such great lenghts to repurpose a
host language element such that they would require an ARIA role
to be applied to make it accessible they should be able to.
That said, we do have a provision in the ARIA spec. to address
conflicts with host languanges in this section of ARIA:
[16]http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/aria/aria.html#host_gener
al_conflict . The specific text that
[16] http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/aria/aria.html#host_general_conflict
<Rich> addresses your concern is this: “Therefore, to prevent
providing conflicting states and properties to assistive
technologies, host languages MUST explicitly declare where the
use of WAI-ARIA attributes on each host language element
conflicts with native attributes for that element. When a host
language declares a WAI-ARIA attribute to be in direct semantic
conflict with a native attribute for a given element, user
agents MUST ignore the WAI-ARIA
<Rich> attribute and instead use the host language attribute
with the same implicit semantic.”
<clown> "user agents MUST use the semantic of the WAI-ARIA role
for processing, not the native semantic, unless the role
requires WAI-ARIA states and properties whose attributes are
explicitly forbidden on the native element by the host
language."
<Rich> Proposal: Proposal: In general the ARIA working group
believe that if the author has gone to such great lenghts to
repurpose a host language element such that they would require
an ARIA role to be applied to make it accessible they should be
able to. That said, we do have a provision in the ARIA spec. to
address conflicts with host languanges in this section of ARIA:
[17]http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/aria/aria.html#host_gener
al_conflict . When a WAI-ARIA
[17] http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/aria/aria.html#host_general_conflict
<Rich> role is provided, user agents MUST use the semantic of
the WAI-ARIA role for processing, not the native semantic,
unless the role requires WAI-ARIA states and properties whose
attributes are explicitly forbidden on the native element by
the host language. Values for roles do not conflict in the same
way as values for states and properties (for example, the HTML
'checked' attribute and the 'aria-checked' attribute could have
conflicting values), and
<Rich> authors are expected to have valid reason to provide a
WAI-ARIA role even on elements that would not normally be
repurposed.
RESOLUTION: Reponse to comment from Karl Groves is: In general
the ARIA working group believe that if the author has gone to
such great lenghts to repurpose a host language element such
that they would require an ARIA role to be applied to make it
accessible they should be able to. That said, we do have a
provision in the ARIA spec. to address conflicts with host
languanges in this section of ARIA:
<Rich>
[18]http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/aria/aria.html#host_gener
al_conflict . When a WAI-ARIA role is provided, user agents
MUST use the semantic of the WAI-ARIA role for processing, not
the native semantic, unless the role requires WAI-ARIA states
and properties whose attributes are explicitly forbidden on the
native element by the host language. Values for roles do not
conflict in the same way as values for states and properties
(for example, the HTML
[18] http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/aria/aria.html#host_general_conflict
<Rich> 'checked' attribute and the 'aria-checked' attribute
could have conflicting values), and authors are expected to
have valid reason to provide a WAI-ARIA role even on elements
that would not normally be repurposed.
RS: We got the resolution
<Rich> [19]https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/486
[19] https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/486
<Rich> Rich: the issue is now closed
Testable Statements
MC: We have an echo problem with JN
RS: So I have been holding off on this, waiting for JC
... We are waiting for him
... Microsoft is also working on the core mappings
JS: There is a question for you
RS: The problem they had, they wanted to do an expand/collapse
pattern, ..., but was not required, I don't know what his
response was...
... I want the expand/collapse pattern could have popup set
<clown>
[20]https://github.com/w3c/aria/pull/467#issuecomment-264236294
[20] https://github.com/w3c/aria/pull/467#issuecomment-264236294
JS: They will still use the expand/collapse pattern
RS: I am fine with it
... I have a branch conflict
... It makes sense to me, it has to go in there
RSL He needs to fix the conflicts
JS: In that pull request
RS: We should be seeing progress in filling out the table
... The gap we have now
... WHen do think you get started
JG: We have been making progress, trying to make
RS: They may be using a version 2
... I can send you send me new links
... You can talk to James Teh and Alexander Z
... Also know that Brett Lewis form FS
... I am trying to get both NVDA and FS more involved
... Send a note to them and copy me
... Joanie gets back next week, that will help to
... We left off with the U element in HTML5
MC: I need to look at the minutes
<Rich>
[21]https://www.w3.org/TR/html51/textlevel-semantics.html#textl
evel-semantics
[21] https://www.w3.org/TR/html51/textlevel-semantics.html#textlevel-semantics
MC: We created a big issue
... The TOC is better than the section for me
... We looked at ......
RS: I didn't see SUB/SUP?? discussed
<MichaelC> [22]https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/485
[22] https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/485
MC: Issue 485
... We did not look at Ruby and its related elements....
RS: Is Ruby even mapped in HTML5?
MC: Tis is part of the triage
JS: Not found
<MichaelC> [23]https://w3c.github.io/html-aam/
[23] https://w3c.github.io/html-aam/
MC: editors draft and was updated yesterday
... I am not sure what they are doing on it
<clown> [24]https://w3c.github.io/html-aam/
[24] https://w3c.github.io/html-aam/
RS: Let's look at Ruby
<clown> [25]https://w3c.github.io/html-aam/#el-ruby
[25] https://w3c.github.io/html-aam/#el-ruby
MC: The accessibility APIs don't know what t do with Ruby
JS: What does Ruby do?
MC: When some languages that can have ambiguous means to
explain its meaning
JS: ALT text for text
MC: We might want to talk to Japanese screen reader users to
learn more about this isse
... Do as a Github issue?
RS: Yes
<MichaelC> GH-ISSUE 488
[26]https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/488
[26] https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/488
<jnurthen>
[27]https://www.w3.org/TR/html5/text-level-semantics.html#the-r
uby-element
[27] https://www.w3.org/TR/html5/text-level-semantics.html#the-ruby-element
JN: There are tons of examples in HTML5 spec
<MichaelC>
[28]https://www.w3.org/TR/html51/textlevel-semantics.html#the-d
ata-element
[28] https://www.w3.org/TR/html51/textlevel-semantics.html#the-data-element
MC: The data element we did not look at
<Rich>
[29]https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/HTML/Element/d
ata
[29] https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/HTML/Element/data
RS: You have the data and then you have a value, like a UCP
code
<clown> [30]https://w3c.github.io/html-aam/#el-data
[30] https://w3c.github.io/html-aam/#el-data
<MichaelC>
[31]https://www.w3.org/TR/html51/textlevel-semantics.html#the-a
bbr-element
[31] https://www.w3.org/TR/html51/textlevel-semantics.html#the-abbr-element
MC: the next one ABBR
<clown> [32]https://w3c.github.io/html-aam/#el-abbr
[32] https://w3c.github.io/html-aam/#el-abbr
I must be mutted
Can someone push the minutes?
I have another meeting now
I need to leave now
<MichaelC> Still to triage from text-level semantics section:
time, mark, bdi/bdo, br/wbr
Summary of Action Items
[NEW] ACTION: Jon create wiki with feedback on aria-html.
others contribute to it. [recorded in
[33]http://www.w3.org/2016/12/01-aria-minutes.html#action01]
[33] http://www.w3.org/2016/12/01-aria-minutes.html#action01
Summary of Resolutions
1. [34]Reponse to comment from Karl Groves is: In general the
ARIA working group believe that if the author has gone to
such great lenghts to repurpose a host language element
such that they would require an ARIA role to be applied to
make it accessible they should be able to. That said, we do
have a provision in the ARIA spec. to address conflicts
with host languanges in this section of ARIA:
[End of minutes]
__________________________________________________________
Minutes formatted by David Booth's [35]scribe.perl version
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$Date: 2016/12/01 19:02:56 $
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[35] http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/scribedoc.htm
[36] http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/2002/scribe/
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Check for newer version at [37]http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/
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[37] http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/
Guessing input format: RRSAgent_Text_Format (score 1.00)
Found Scribe: jongund
Inferring ScribeNick: jongund
Present: jongund Janina Joseph_Scheuhammer
Found Date: 01 Dec 2016
Guessing minutes URL: [38]http://www.w3.org/2016/12/01-aria-minutes.html
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Rich Schwerdtfeger
Received on Thursday, 1 December 2016 19:05:52 UTC