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Minutes of APA call 2018-07-18

From: Gottfried Zimmermann \(Lists\) <zimmermann@accesstechnologiesgroup.com>
Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2018 13:00:15 -0400
To: "'W3C WAI Accessible Platform Architectures'" <public-apa@w3.org>
Message-ID: <007b01d41eb8$ce2f9e70$6a8edb50$@accesstechnologiesgroup.com>
In HTML format: https://www.w3.org/2018/07/18-apa-minutes.html 
In text format: see below.

Best regards,


 Prof. Dr. Gottfried Zimmermann
Mobile User Interaction


      [1] http://www.w3.org/

                               - DRAFT -

     Accessible Platform Architectures Working Group Teleconference

18 Jul 2018


          janina, Joanmarie_Diggs, Becka11y, Léonie, JF, jasonjgw,
          MichaelC, gottfried, Mark_Hakkinen, Irfan_Ali, Peter,





     * [2]Topics
         1. [3]Agenda Overview; Announcements
         2. [4]ETS Proposed Work
         3. [5]Charter Renewal Update
         4. [6]TPAC 2018
         5. [7]CSS Update
         6. [8]new on TR
     * [9]Summary of Action Items
     * [10]Summary of Resolutions

   <scribe> scribe: Gottfried

Agenda Overview; Announcements

   Janina: Welcome to the folks from ETS
   ... Topic is on how to get proper pronunciation for people who
   rely on speech.
   ... We will go over what they are proposing.
   ... How this would be in the stack and available to browsers.
   ... Then some other items (standard agenda)
   ... Any updates?
   ... I am confident that we have a place for this work in APA.
   Maybe in personalization tf. Work this activity in our new

ETS Proposed Work

   Markku: Director of digital accessibility of ETS.
   ... SSML has become an important topic for ETS.
   ... We deliver educational assessment / examinations.
   ... Text-to-speech pronunication is a critical requirement in
   the education classroom setting.
   ... Mispronounced words are problematic because there is a
   mismatch between was is being taught in the classroom vs. what
   is being rendered by TTS.
   ... We don't believe that using lexicons by TTS is the right
   ... Rather the content matter experts / authors should apply
   the pronunciation rules.
   ... Vendors are often using hacking solutions, e.g. misuse of
   aria-label. Substitution of words in context.
   ... Often text expansions that make the synthesizer sound more
   ... For 3 years we have trying to find a standards-based
   approach for this problem.
   ... What does it look like in HTML?
   ... We talked to AT and browser vendors and discussed ideas
   with them.
   ... The idea of inlining SSML in HTML was a no-starter.
   ... Vendors of read-aloud tools use data-* attributes.
   ... This seems to work.
   ... But this is not a standardized approach.
   ... We came up with our JSON-based model. Attribute aria-ssml
   with JSON content that would apply to the content of the HTML
   tag that the attribute is attached to.
   ... We think that this is the right approach for us.
   ... We would like to get serious feedback from W3C community.
   ... At the NFB convention, a blind student confirmed that
   pronunciation is very important for passing exams.

   Peter: We have been working with pronunciation for 10 years -
   in proprietary ways.
   ... Tweak pronunciation for voice output. Database approach.
   ... data-ssml attribute

   <Irfan> texthelp attribute example:

   <Irfan> <span ssml="sub" alias="Every Student Succeeds

   Peter: Hoster of the message responsible for putting the
   attribute on the tag.

   Markku: Example from TextHelp uses multiple attributes.
   ... Drawback that you would sometimes need more than one or two
   attributes. Therefore, we propose JSON structure.

   Leonie: We are trying to solve a problem by making authors
   responsible. Is this a good approach?
   ... The problem is caused by TTS.

   Peter: Some prounciation issues are better handled by lexicons
   in synthesizers. But sometimes you have very specific authoring
   contexts, e.g. scientific terms, chemistry, mathematics.
   ... Also pausing between words.
   ... We got it wrong because we trusted the synthesizer to do
   ... Content authors know best how content should be spoken.

   Leonie: Okay for specific content and audience.

   Markku: Authoring platform with interface that allows content
   authors to highlight words that need pronunciation rules.
   ... Dialog allows them to pick the appropriate functions,
   without knowing JSON.

   Janina: Lexicons could be improved, but they will not provide a
   complete solution. In particular, for geography and proper
   ... But we should not put all the burden on authors.
   ... Should address this more systematically.
   ... Character set switching on mobile apps.

   <Irfan> +q

   Janina: Testing should not rely on heuristics, and textbooks
   should not rely on heuristics either.
   ... Important for multi-language environments.

   <Zakim> janina, you wanted to say lexicons won't be enough

   Leonie: Example seems to be similar to <abbr> and @title. Seems
   straight forward.
   ... But how would you use this to correct pronunciation?

   Markku: Substitution capability of SSML.
   ... Phonetic pronunciation also possible in SSML, e.g. using
   ... SSML can also control how numbers are spoken.
   ... Also pausing can be controlled, in milli-seconds.
   ... When supporting braille, many existing solutions go to
   sound and refreshable braille (does not make sense in braille).
   ... In SSML, you could have text displayed on braille that is
   different from the text that is sent to the synthesizer for

   Joanie: With speech dispatchers, you can send SSML directly.
   ... Might be easy for AT to implement. I like this idea.

   Markku: There was pushback on inlining SSML in HTML. But with
   JSON, it should be easier.

   Leonie: Any response from other vendors other than TextHelp?

   Markku: We have talked to a number of AT vendors, e.g. Freedom
   ... Initial reaction: we are used to mispronunciations.
   ... When we talk about the use case of education, we get
   willingness to look into this.
   ... Also positive feedback from NVDA.
   ... James Craig (Apple) - JSON would allow to map speech rules
   to their internal markup.
   ... Talked to Microsoft and Google.
   ... Talked to Peter Korn (Amazon).
   ... Key is to get some kind of standards-based approach that
   they can use.

   Leonie: Important to emphasize the educational aspect.
   ... With screenreaders, people are trying to come up with
   something that seems helpful, but it is not helpful.
   ... Terms in specific domains, e.g. music, are often pronounced
   completely different than regular.

   Markku: Home automation and assistance products (e.g. Amazon
   Echo, Google Home) allow to use SSML to approve the user
   experience of spoken conversation.
   ... How can the average user benefit from this, but AT users

   <Irfan> [11]https://github.com/mhakkinen/SSMLinHTMLproposal

     [11] https://github.com/mhakkinen/SSMLinHTMLproposal

   Janina: We agree that we have a problem that needs to be
   ... Need to start the classic process for standardization.

   Markku: The above URL describes the SSML approach that we are

   Gottfried: In HTML, we have a lot of visual styling in three
   stages (author, UA, user). But that is missing today for speech

   Janina: Can ETS provide support from the wider publishing

   Markku: Yes, we can provide resources, including in WEA(?)

   Janina: Can we move that to personalization tf?

   Joanie: Does not really fit. Personalization would be what an
   end user prefers. This is a more general approach for speech.

   <Irfan> +1 to joanie ... ETS doesn't think personalization is a
   great fit

   Joanie: It is not optional, not a choice, not a preference.
   ... Putting that in Personalization may not be an efficient way
   of moving it forward.

   Janina: This should be available to everybody independent of
   ... This is more mainstream than other things we are dealing

   Michael: Don't see structural issues, only charter.
   ... Personalization and messaging are probably not good fits.
   ... This topic may be actually independent. Still thinking
   about this.
   ... Markku, you can assume that we can move forward.
   ... Encourage everybody to vote for the new APA charter.

   Janina: Compelling thought that we have so little in speech
   styling compared to visual styling.
   ... Excited to see this happen.
   ... Charter approval should come soon, hopefully.

   <scribe> ... New charter will allow for producing normative

   UNKNOWN_SPEAKER: Do we need time at TPAC to talk about this?

   <Irfan> ETS will be at TPAC

   Gottfried: Good to put this on the TPAC agenda since some
   people may join for mainstream use of this.

   Janina: Need to bring this up to W3C.
   ... Thanks to ETS people who were present.

Charter Renewal Update

   Janina: Yesterday, we had only a few votes.

   Michael: 8 votes in support currently.

   Janina: Will bring this up on the WAI coordination call.
   ... Everybody with voting rights, please vote.
   ... And remind others to vote.

TPAC 2018 [12]https://www.w3.org/WAI/APA/wiki/Meetings/TPAC_2018

     [12] https://www.w3.org/WAI/APA/wiki/Meetings/TPAC_2018

   Janina: Conversation with people working on maths has been

   Joanie: Peter is not a fan of MathML. His community group is
   called "Getting math onto web pages"
   ... So it is about math in general, not MathML. But could
   include MathML.

   Janina: RQTF continues discussion on supporting various
   knowledge domains.
   ... Create another AAM for defining other domains than math,
   e.g. music.
   ... Wide range of this kind of content.
   ... In RQTF, diagram work has been mentioned.
   ... My input: We need some kind of widget to support a good
   markup from domains that don't currently exist.
   ... Web platforms need to get into this discussion.
   ... Maybe there will be specific markup for every domain, e.g.
   chemistry, music.
   ... But my dream is to have a more generalized way.

   Jason: RQTF is interested in this.
   ... Problem is more challenging because sometimes the
   specialized content is not discipline-specific.
   ... A11y APIs at UA level is very inflexible to adapt to
   changes that are specific to web apps or content domains.

   <scribe> ... New technologies such as web components,
   accessibility object model are relevant here.

   Janina: Hope we can discuss this at TPAC.
   ... In RQTF, research papers on this were mentioned.

CSS Update

new on TR [13]http://www.w3.org/TR/tr-status-drafts.html

     [13] http://www.w3.org/TR/tr-status-drafts.html

   Michael: User timing and server timing
   ... We said no need to review

   Janina closes the meeting.

Summary of Action Items

Summary of Resolutions

   [End of minutes]

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Default Present: janina, Joanmarie_Diggs, Becka11y, Léonie, JF, jasonjgw
, MichaelC, gottfried, Mark_Hakkinen, Irfan_Ali, Peter, Becky
Present: janina Joanmarie_Diggs Becka11y Léonie JF jasonjgw MichaelC got
tfried Mark_Hakkinen Irfan_Ali Peter Becky
Found Scribe: Gottfried
Inferring ScribeNick: gottfried
Found Date: 18 Jul 2018
People with action items:

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