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Minutes of APA call 2017-09-13

From: Gottfried Zimmermann \(Lists\) <zimmermann@accesstechnologiesgroup.com>
Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2017 19:01:04 +0200
To: "'W3C WAI Accessible Platform Architectures'" <public-apa@w3.org>
Message-ID: <042201d32cb1$e2e9c100$a8bd4300$@accesstechnologiesgroup.com>
HTML format: https://www.w3.org/2017/09/13-apa-minutes.html
Text format: See bottom of this message.

Best regards,

 Prof. Dr. Gottfried Zimmermann
Mobile User Interaction


      [1] http://www.w3.org/

                               - DRAFT -

     Accessible Platform Architectures Working Group Teleconference

13 Sep 2017

   See also: [2]IRC log

      [2] http://www.w3.org/2017/09/13-apa-irc


          Johannes, Wilm, JohannesWilm, Joanmarie_Diggs,
          Gottfried, janina, tink, MichaelC

          Chaals, MichielBijl, Ian




     * [3]Topics
         1. [4]preview agenda with items from two minutes
         2. [5]Input Events
         3. [6]new on TR
     * [7]Summary of Action Items
     * [8]Summary of Resolutions

   <johanneswilm> I don't think I received the meeting webex

   <janina> One moment, Johannes ...

   <janina> Gottfried, not sure what to advise. Do you have sip?

   <scribe> scribe: Gottfried

preview agenda with items from two minutes

   Michael: WCAG 2.1 wide review published yesterday

   janina: We are invited to do a horizontal review

Input Events

   janina: Johannes gave us some questions a while ago - we need
   to better understand them
   ... Do we have an issue tracking page for input events?

   johanneswilm: Under w3c, input events

   <MichaelC> [9]https://github.com/w3c/input-events

      [9] https://github.com/w3c/input-events

   janina: Leonie talked to the JAWS people.
   ... Walk through Johannes' questions?


     [10] https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-apa/2017Mar/0013.html

   > 1. From an accessibility perspective the following would be

   > - A notification to ATs that functions like text insertions
   were completed

   > so that positive reinforcement could be provided to the user.

   johanneswilm: JavaScript gets a notification, can react. At
   this stage, any DOM modification should be done.
   ... Your 2nd point: Create your own events. There are two ways
   for this.
   ... JavaScript can make events. If interacting through some
   other API, it depends on the browser.
   ... We have made a list of all editing actions that any of the
   browsers allow.
   ... And what would be consistent with what's already existing
   on the browsers.
   ... No browser supports all editing actions today.

   Leonie: I spoke to Glen Gordon, original developer for JAWS on
   ... Notifications would need to be configurable by the user.
   ... No way to provide out-of-band information in a
   locale-independent fashion. Windows API does not support this
   ... We would need to talk to the platform API people.

   <johanneswilm> +q

   johanneswilm: If the user makes an edit action, Javascript gets
   notified, and can either let the browser do the action, or do
   it itself.

   <johanneswilm> anyone in the call?

   johanneswilm: By default, there is no Javascript code to catch
   this - needs to be coded.
   ... Typically, the application wants to be notified about all
   editing actions of the user.

   tink: There is no way for a meaningful information to record on
   the DOM tree.

   johanneswilm: It is not clear by looking at the DOM changes.
   ... We would need this before the input event is handled.
   ... Also, the application may want to ignore some edit actions
   (e.g. bold).

   tink: As far as i know, these edit events would not always
   occur on screenreaders.
   ... Maybe i need to look at how screenreader do this in Word.

   Joanmarie: When i press at a toolbar button, i get a text
   attribute change event.
   ... So if it notifies me about text made bold, i can assume it
   was the bold button.
   ... The user agent should be able to identify the appropriate
   text attribute that was changed

   janina: The specific use case is when we are editing content
   through browsers.
   ... Word-processing style edits

   <johanneswilm> +q

   Joanmarie: Looking at the list of edit actions, all could be
   communicated by a user agent through my platform.
   ... Don't know how one would go from the input event spec to
   make this happen - but should not be difficult.

   johanneswilm: List of actions is fairly long because different
   browsers support different events.
   ... E.g. Safari supports changing text color. This creates
   problems between editors and users - because nothing happens.
   ... List does not contain all actions that would be desirable.
   ... Only actions will be executed if Javascript handles it.
   ... Sometimes, there is no input event for special actions,
   e.g. "insert citation".
   ... Making a JS editor is a multi-year effort. They could add
   information for screenreaders.

   janina: Which year are we in?

   johanneswilm: I have been actively involved since about
   2014/15. Shipped recently for two browers.
   ... There is a fairly small number for building editors,
   probably 20-30.

   janina: Next steps?

   Joanmarie: Safari should be okay. But i don't know what Windows
   ... Adding types for edit actions in Webkit-TGK.

   johanneswilm: Looking at Word processors, are there things that
   browsers currently don't support, but we need them?
   ... Full-day meeting on text editing at TPAC.

   janina: Can we have time together?

   johanneswilm: yes

   tink: Tuesday for editing tf

   johanneswilm: I can present your ideas to the meeting. But you
   are welcome to join the meeting and present yourself.

   janina: Most of us will be at TPAC in San Francisco. So we
   should make progress on this.

   Joanmarie: I can look into Webkit and then tell what could be
   done. And maybe make a demo of what could be done.

   tink: Would be extremely helpful.

   johanneswilm: In a demo world, all events will be executed. But
   if you use the actual editors, they cancel about 75% of the
   events via Javascript.

   janina: We might need to negotiate about this.

   johanneswilm: tinyMCE, CKeditor, etc.

   <johanneswilm> prosemirror

   <johanneswilm> substance.io

   johanneswilm: tinyMCE and CKeditor are used by Wordpress and

   janina: We should think in terms of non-screenreader AT. No
   idea yet about possible issues.
   ... Think about use cases outside screenreaders.

   Gottfried: What about keyboard users without screenreaders?

   janina: Key bindings as an alternative for pressing buttons.

   tink: Worth picking up at TPAC.

   janina: Thank you, Johannes, for joining us.

new on TR [11]http://www.w3.org/TR/tr-status-drafts.html

     [11] http://www.w3.org/TR/tr-status-drafts.html

   janina: I get an action on WCAG 2.1.

   <MichaelC> ACTION: Janina to review WCAG 2.1
   [12]https://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG21/ - due 3 Oct [recorded in

     [12] https://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG21/
     [13] http://www.w3.org/2017/09/13-apa-minutes.html#action01

   <trackbot> Created ACTION-2144 - Review wcag 2.1
   [14]https://www.w3.org/tr/wcag21/ [on Janina Sajka - due

     [14] https://www.w3.org/tr/wcag21/

   janina: who else?

   MichaelC: Sent horizontal review requests to others. In APA, we
   should look at usefulness for accessibility, coherence,
   conflicts with other specs, conflicts with other things that
   WCAG does not provide a hook for.

   <MichaelC> [15]WCAG 2.1

     [15] https://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG21/

   janina: Make a list of things that should be added in the

   <MichaelC> action-2144:


   <trackbot> Notes added to action-2144 Review wcag 2.1

     [17] https://www.w3.org/tr/wcag21/.

   <MichaelC> [18]Long Tasks API 1

     [18] https://www.w3.org/TR/longtasks-1/

   This document defines an API that web page authors can use to
   detect presence of “long tasks” that monopolize the UI thread
   for extended periods of time and block other critical tasks
   from being executed - e.g. reacting to user input.

   MichaelC: Do we need to comment on this?
   ... My guess is that it does what it would need to do for us -
   but not really sure.
   ... It's an algorithmic spec, hard to see what it does.

   Joanmarie: Could be some relevance for AT related events. Can
   we come back to it?

   janina: Come back in Jan?

   <MichaelC> ACTION: cooper to ping review on Long Tasks API 1 -
   due 4 months [recorded in

     [19] http://www.w3.org/2017/09/13-apa-minutes.html#action02

   <trackbot> Created ACTION-2145 - Ping review on long tasks api
   1 [on Michael Cooper - due 2018-01-13].

   <MichaelC> [20]Paint Timing 1

     [20] https://www.w3.org/TR/paint-timing/

   This document defines an API that can be used to capture a
   series of key moments (First Paint, First Contentful Paint)
   during pageload which developers care about.

   MichaelC: Another algorithmic spec. Can't tell what it does. My
   guess is we are not interested, but could be wrong.

   janina: Agree.

   (no objections)

   MichaelC: Shadow DOM needs attention.

   janina: Looking for Shane.

   Joanmarie: I will email him about this.

   <chaals> [Shadow DOM probably does need attention...]

Summary of Action Items

   [NEW] ACTION: cooper to ping review on Long Tasks API 1 - due 4
   months [recorded in
   [NEW] ACTION: Janina to review WCAG 2.1
   https://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG21/ - due 3 Oct [recorded in

     [21] http://www.w3.org/2017/09/13-apa-minutes.html#action02
     [22] http://www.w3.org/2017/09/13-apa-minutes.html#action01

Summary of Resolutions

   [End of minutes]

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Default Present: Johannes, Wilm, JohannesWilm, Joanmarie_Diggs, Gottfrie
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Present: Johannes Wilm JohannesWilm Joanmarie_Diggs Gottfried janina tin
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Regrets: Chaals MichielBijl Ian
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Found Date: 13 Sep 2017
Guessing minutes URL: [26]http://www.w3.org/2017/09/13-apa-minutes.html
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     [26] http://www.w3.org/2017/09/13-apa-minutes.html

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Received on Wednesday, 13 September 2017 17:01:29 UTC

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