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Re: Re[6]: HTTP2 Expression of Interest

From: Mike Belshe <mike@belshe.com>
Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2012 20:56:45 -0700
Message-ID: <CABaLYCsgsPCrnkjV_DC4gDA3ADZkjq2wAEZx+mZW7SbpPGmJ8w@mail.gmail.com>
To: "Adrien W. de Croy" <adrien@qbik.com>
Cc: Rajeev Bector <rbector@yahoo-inc.com>, Martin Thomson <martin.thomson@gmail.com>, Martin J. Dürst <duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp>, Doug Beaver <doug@fb.com>, Willy Tarreau <w@1wt.eu>, "ietf-http-wg@w3.org" <ietf-http-wg@w3.org>
On Tue, Jul 17, 2012 at 8:50 PM, Adrien W. de Croy <adrien@qbik.com> wrote:

>
> ------ Original Message ------
> From: "Mike Belshe" mike@belshe.com
>
>
>
> On Tue, Jul 17, 2012 at 8:34 PM, Adrien W. de Croy < <adrien@qbik.com>
> adrien@qbik.com> wrote:
>
>>
>> we can already transfer many objects over a single connection with
>> HTTP/1.1
>>
>> SPDY without SSL would be more speedy than with it.
>>
>> There may be only a couple R-Ts to get an SSL handshake, but sprinkle on
>> a CRL / OCSP check and you're left eating dust.
>>
>> So, let's just get this straight for the record.  SSL will not improve
>> latency.  It will make it worse, and for many people (on
>> already-high-latency links) a LOT worse.
>>
>
> Of course, no-SSL is lower latency than SSL.  It's not 3 RTs all the time,
> but yes, OSCP can add a lot, and SSL implementations vary.  But SPDY gains
> a lot of this back with fewer connections, multiplexing, and compression.
>  Don't forget to implement SSL False Start in your client.  Obviously an
> un-optimized SSL stack will have a harder time than an optimized one.
>
> But its not true that every bit of latency is more important than security.
>
> I'm just not convinced this would be a security win in the end.
>
> How many CAs are there?  We may as well right now deprecate OCSP / CRL
> checks, because you have 200 million sites using a cert from one vendor,
> you take out their OCSP server(s), and you've taken down 200 million sites.
>
> Way to go amplifying DOS effectiveness.
> Becoming a CA is non-trivial.  If we suddenly need a million more of them
> to cope with cert load, how do you anticipate that will improve security?
> I think it will make for a disaster.
>
>

The TLS concerns are legitimate.  We need to fix TLS to be even better, not
make HTTP/2 weaker.


>
> Note that Google has reported overall latency of SPDY + SSL is faster than
> HTTP without SSL or SPDY.
>
> you saying SPDY + SSL faster than SPDY (presumably without SSL)?  Doesn't
> seem possible.
>

Oh - SPDY over port 80 is non deployable for the same reasons pipelining
isn't deployable.  So that will never happen :-)

But you're correct, I wouldn't expect SPDY + SSL to be faster than SPDY.


>
> I have no problem accepting SPDY + SSL would be faster than HTTP.  But
> we're talking about adding a bunch of things to HTTP that would provide the
> same benefits that SPDY currently enjoys.
>

Yeah, that's not going to fly....

The problem is that the intermediaries just get stuck (they expect that
port 80 is exclusively HTTP/1.1).  When you send them additional data, they
sometimes hang, and this prevents deployment of new protocols.  Websockets
has the same problem.  This is part of why no major sites are turning on
websockets on port 80....

But, regardless, SPDY gives us the window of opportunity through reduced
latency to add security into the protocol without making latency worse.

Mike


>
>
>
>
>
>
> Mike
>
>
>>
>>
>> ------ Original Message ------
>> From: "Rajeev Bector" < <rbector@yahoo-inc.com>rbector@yahoo-inc.com>
>> To: "Adrien W. de Croy" < <adrien@qbik.com>adrien@qbik.com>;"Martin
>> Thomson" < <martin.thomson@gmail.com>martin.thomson@gmail.com>;"Martin
>> J. Dürst" < <duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp>duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp>
>> Cc: "Doug Beaver" < <doug@fb.com>doug@fb.com>;"Willy Tarreau" <<w@1wt.eu>
>> w@1wt.eu>;" <ietf-http-wg@w3.org>ietf-http-wg@w3.org" <<ietf-http-wg@w3.org>
>> ietf-http-wg@w3.org>
>>  Sent: 18/07/2012 3:26:56 p.m.
>> Subject: Re: Re[2]: HTTP2 Expression of Interest
>>
>>  Arguably, the cost of 3 Rts is amortized over many many objects that
>> gets transferred over the session. That said, I am trying to imagine how to
>> do crypto on my Arduino :-).
>>
>>
>> From: "Adrien W. de Croy" < <adrien@qbik.com> <adrien@qbik.com>
>> adrien@qbik.com>
>> Reply-To: "Adrien W. de Croy" < <adrien@qbik.com> <adrien@qbik.com>
>> adrien@qbik.com>
>> Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2012 20:20:09 -0700
>> To: Martin Thomson < <martin.thomson@gmail.com><martin.thomson@gmail.com>
>> martin.thomson@gmail.com>, "Martin J. Dürst" < <duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp><duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp>
>> duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp>
>> Cc: Doug Beaver < <doug@fb.com> <doug@fb.com>doug@fb.com>, Willy Tarreau
>> < <w@1wt.eu> <w@1wt.eu>w@1wt.eu>, " <ietf-http-wg@w3.org><ietf-http-wg@w3.org>
>> ietf-http-wg@w3.org" < <ietf-http-wg@w3.org> <ietf-http-wg@w3.org>
>> ietf-http-wg@w3.org>
>> Subject: Re[2]: HTTP2 Expression of Interest
>>
>>
>> ------ Original Message ------
>> From: "Martin Thomson" < <martin.thomson@gmail.com><martin.thomson@gmail.com>
>> martin.thomson@gmail.com>
>>
>> On 17 July 2012 19:35, "Martin J. Dürst" < <duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp><duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp>
>> duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp> wrote:
>>
>>
>> So why are we okay with 10-20% more processing costs for everybody, but
>> not
>> with 10-20% more bandwidth? What's different between processing costs and
>> bandwidth?
>>
>>
>>
>> Personally, I thought that the first optimization was for latency,
>>
>> How do you optimise latency by adding 3 RTs in a SSL setup?
>>
>>
>>
>> with bandwidth as secondary and (obviously) consequential.  Trade-offs
>> may have to be made.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
Received on Wednesday, 18 July 2012 03:57:14 GMT

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