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Re: Conformance Test for HTTP 1.1

From: Mark Nottingham <mnot@mnot.net>
Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2000 11:55:07 -0700
To: Caveman <hoffmankeith@hotmail.com>
Cc: Carl Kugler/Boulder/IBM <kugler@us.ibm.com>, Miles Sabin <msabin@cromwellmedia.co.uk>, http-wg@cuckoo.hpl.hp.com
Message-ID: <20001010115505.F9177@mnot.net>


Err, could you give a more solid demonstration as to why this is not good?


On Tue, Oct 10, 2000 at 09:23:10AM -0500, Caveman wrote:
> Carl,
> 
> Once we start doing any kind of compliancy checking we face the proverbial
> "slippery slope".  What comes next?  Seperate tests for things that MAY be
> done according to the specs?  Things that SHOULD be?
> 
> I think the best thing to do is stay out of the compliancy checking business
> all together.
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Keith
> 
> 
> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Carl Kugler/Boulder/IBM" <kugler@us.ibm.com>
> To: "Caveman" <hoffmankeith@hotmail.com>
> Cc: "Mark Nottingham" <mnot@mnot.net>; "Miles Sabin"
> <msabin@cromwellmedia.co.uk>; <http-wg@cuckoo.hpl.hp.com>
> Sent: Monday, October 09, 2000 2:39 PM
> Subject: Re: Conformance Test for HTTP 1.1
> 
> 
> >
> > >
> > >I just want to put my two cents into this conversation:
> > >
> > >I think the idea of doing compliancy testing is great.  And the idea of
> > >having one "check everything test" is also a good thought.  However, how
> > do
> > >we guarantee that the test scenarios created are actually following the
> > >"specs"?
> > >
> >
> > I was thinking along the lines of a script (or script fragment) for each
> > MUST in the spec.  MUSTs are supposed to be verifiable, right?  All
> > compliant implementations, regardless of manufacturer/developer, must do
> > the MUSTs, right?   Using scripts makes it easy for people to inspect a
> > script and correct it if it isn't according to spec.
> >
> > >I think this is something better left to outside agencies to address.
> The
> > >testing game tends to get to be too industry biased.  Whether
> intentionally
> > >or not you will see tests similar to this proposed one done and get
> totally
> > >different results depending on who does it.
> > >
> > >I know this actually sounds like a good argument to create a "standard
> > >test", but in my opinion this leads the doorway too wide open to start
> > >skewing the tests in favor of one manufacturer/developer vs. another one.
> I
> > >realize that there are currently many industry leaders involved in this
> > >organization and they provide valuable insights.  However, they are just
> > >involved in the CREATION of standards, not in judging the conformance to
> > >them.
> > >
> > >In short, while this is a good idea with the best interests of everyone
> in
> > >mind, I think this is probably stepping outside of the charter of the
> > >organization.
> > >
> > >-kh
> > >
> > >----- Original Message -----
> > >From: "Mark Nottingham" <mnot@mnot.net>
> > >To: "Miles Sabin" <msabin@cromwellmedia.co.uk>
> > >Cc: <http-wg@cuckoo.hpl.hp.com>
> > >Sent: Friday, October 06, 2000 11:30 AM
> > >Subject: Re: Conformance Test for HTTP 1.1
> > >
> > >
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> I think proxies are the biggest target, because they're so hard to
> > >implement
> > >> correctly, and so much more complex. In my experience, there's a fairly
> > >wide
> > >> variance in how implementors choose to interpret the spec.
> > >>
> > >> Of course, once you do one for proxies, it's relatively easy to get
> client
> > >> and server test suites out of it.
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> On Fri, Oct 06, 2000 at 10:24:14AM +0100, Miles Sabin wrote:
> > >> > Mark Nottingham wrote,
> > >> > > I've lately been considering starting discussion of
> > >> > > development of something within the W3C, as it was involved
> > >> > > in the development of the HTTP, and has an established
> > >> > > history of developing similar tools (although I'm not sure if
> > >> > > W3C can formally commit resources).
> > >> > >
> > >> > > If anyone has any thoughts about this, please share them,
> > >> > > because I'd like to get this moving.
> > >> >
> > >> > This sounds like a fine idea (tho', as you say, it's an open
> > >> > question whether or not the W3C would be able to commit
> > >> > resources).
> > >> >
> > >> > Do you have any particular emphasis in mind: server, clients,
> > >> > or proxies, or all equal weight on all?
> > >> >
> > >> > Cheers,
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> > Miles
> > >> >
> > >> > --
> > >> > Miles Sabin                       Cromwell Media
> > >> > Internet Systems Architect        5/6 Glenthorne Mews
> > >> > +44 (0)20 8817 4030               London, W6 0LJ, England
> > >> > msabin@cromwellmedia.com          http://www.cromwellmedia.com/
> > >> >
> > >>
> > >> --
> > >> Mark Nottingham
> > >> http://www.mnot.net/
> > >>
> > >>
> > >
> >
> >

-- 
Mark Nottingham
http://www.mnot.net/
Received on Tuesday, 10 October 2000 17:05:14 EDT

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