W3C home > Mailing lists > Public > ietf-http-wg-old@w3.org > September to December 1997

Re: This is not "this is not a date"

From: Scott Lawrence <lawrence@agranat.com>
Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 11:59:37 -0500
Message-Id: <199712121659.LAA04875@devnix.agranat.com>
To: HTTP Working Group <http-wg%cuckoo.hpl.hp.com@hplb.hpl.hp.com>
X-Mailing-List: <http-wg@cuckoo.hpl.hp.com> archive/latest/4925

>>>>> "JM" == Jeffrey Mogul <mogul@pa.dec.com> writes:

JM> 	If the sender is required to send a Date header
JM> 	by some part of this specification, and is unable
JM> 	to generate a current HTTP-date value, it SHOULD
JM> 	send a legal HTTP-date value that is provably in
JM> 	the past.

JM> For example, send
JM> 	Date: Thu, 01 Jan 1970 00:0:01 GMT

JM> As far as I can tell, this will not lead to any more trouble
JM> than simply omitting the Date header.  It also seems to be
JM> legal according to section 14.19 of -rev-01.

  I'm concerned that this approach would confuse proxies when combined
  with max-age; anything that attempts to use the Date value to figure
  out how old a response _really_ is using the date value will be
  hopelessly messed up (your excellent work on clock unsyncronization
  has already shown that this is essentially hopeless, Jeff, but I
  don't think that will stop people from trying).

  We have the same problem with Date and Expires; proxies may add them
  (section 13.5.2) even when the origin server used an empty value
  when the digest was generated.  As I see it, we have four

   1) Change the rule for whether or not these may be added.

      I include this for completeness - I don't think it would work
      because existing (even 1.0) implementations would still do it.

      1a) Don't allow the additions when authentication is in use.

          Doesn't work because the authentication fields may be in the
          trailer where the proxy can't see them when building the
          header (we should allow for proxies that forward and cache
          in parallel).

   2) Have the origin server put in bogus values and use those in the

      I'm concerned that this would cause confusion with age
      calculations and perhaps cache validity problems.

   3) Put a cleartext attribute in the digest headers to pass the
      value used by the origin server when computing the digest.  We
      do this now with the digest-uri-value for the same reason (the
      value in the received URI line may not be what the sender

   4) Remove these components from the entity digest calculation.  If
      we accept Paul Leachs suggestion that we correct/redefine the
      digest to allow for 3rd party authentication anyway, this
      becomes an option to consider.

  I don't believe that 1 or 2 are good ideas for the reasons above.

  Number 3 is workable, but makes digest that much more trouble to do
  and I'd hate to create any more barrier to getting this
  widely implemented.

  My own inclination is to bite the bullet and have a hard look at 4;
  this means figuring out whether we really need all those fields in
  the entity digest.  If we removed the problematic fields and made
  Pauls change, the definition (without my <<<< markers) would become:

    entity-digest<"> KD ( H( H( A1 ) )              <<<<< was H(A1)
                         ,unquoted nonce-value ":"
                          Method ":"
                                                    <<<<< date was here
                          entity-info ":"

       entity-info       =
           digest-uri-value ":"
           media-type       ":"   ; Content-Type, see section 3.7 of [2]
           *DIGIT           ":"   ; Content-Length, see 10.12 of [2]
           content-coding   ":"   ; Content-Encoding, see 3.5 of [2]
                 <<<<<< l-m and expires were here

  Talking off line with Paul, he said that the expires and
  last-modified values were originally included here to provide replay
  protection; even with a repeated nonce-value these values would
  make replay harder.  We already have text in there on the importance
  of good nonce selection, and mechanisms for changing the nonce
  without adding round trips.

  With abject apologies to everyone else who has already implemented
  this, I suggest that we make this change in the interest of making
  the mechanism work and getting others to join us in eliminating
  cleartext passwords with a low cost authentication scheme.

Scott Lawrence           EmWeb Embedded Server       <lawrence@agranat.com>
Agranat Systems, Inc.        Engineering            http://www.agranat.com/
Received on Friday, 12 December 1997 09:14:54 UTC

This archive was generated by hypermail 2.3.1 : Wednesday, 7 January 2015 14:40:21 UTC