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Re: New document on "Simple hit-metering for HTTP"

From: <max@bbs.uanet.kharkov.ua>
Date: Wed, 10 Aug 1994 00:00:01 +2
Message-Id: <m0uoXAs-0007d1C@lviv-kharkov.esc.kharkov.ua>
To: Paul Leach <paulle@microsoft.com>, Koen Holtman <koen@win.tue.nl>
Cc: koen@win.tue.nl, mogul@pa.dec.com, http-wg%cuckoo.hpl.hp.com@hplb.hpl.hp.com
X-Mailing-List: <http-wg@cuckoo.hpl.hp.com> archive/latest/1247
> From:          koen@win.tue.nl (Koen Holtman)
> Subject:       Re: New document on "Simple hit-metering for HTTP"
> To:            paulle@microsoft.com (Paul Leach)
> Date:          Wed, 7 Aug 1996 14:54:07 +0200 (MET DST)
> Cc:            koen@win.tue.nl, mogul@pa.dec.com,
>                http-wg%cuckoo.hpl.hp.com@hplb.hpl.hp.com

> Koen:
> >>>>In the current (classic) meaning of the word,
> >>>>
> >>>>  1 hit-classic = 1 request on an origin server.
> Paul:
> >Actually, it just occurred to me -- you're definition of "hit-classic"
> >is bogus. We (at least I) do not know how sites count hits.
> You may not know that, but I am pretty sure that when people say `my
> server gets 10K hits per day', they mean request messages per day.
> Maybe some statistics packages use other definitions of `hits', but I
> am sure that cache-busting advertising sites who get payed by the hit
> use this definition.  This definition yields the highest count, and
> high counts is what they want.  Even an image transfer aborted at 10%
> would be a hit; it yields a line in the access log file, after all.
> (Which reminds me: you probably have to add something to your draft
> about how to count aborted transfers).
> Koen:
> >>Look, if all hit count customers were sophisticated enough to pay more
> >>for `high quality' hits, advertising sites could not make more money
> >>by using cache busting.  So if your assumed level customer of maturity
> >>was indeed present, there would not be a cache busting problem to
> >>solve in the first place.
> Paul:
> >Huh? Until we deploy something in caches, "cache-busting" is the only
> >way they have to get demographic data. 
> Nope. You can collect demographic data fine without cache busting; you
> just get less of it.  There will still be plenty of stuff in your
> logfile.
> Also, you really need to distinguish here between two kinds of
> demographic data:
> 1) Hit counts
> 2) User's Referer field, IP address, User-Agent field, ...
> Your hit counting mechanism can only reduce the cache busting done to
> get more of 1), not the cache busting done to get more of 2).  
> That is why I focus on by how successful your scheme is at getting
> more of 1).  If most advertising sites are actually doing cache
> busting to get more of 2), (and they might, I don't know) then your
> proposal will not reduce cache busting anyway.
> [...]
> >>I guess we could argue at length about present and predicted levels of
> >>maturity (both in the US and in Europe), but the bottom line is this:
> >>
> >> I feel very strongly that it would be a huge mistake to make a scheme
> >> to eliminate cache busting dependent on something, sufficient
> >> customer sophistication in this case, the existence of which is
> >> questionable at best.
> >
> >First, this isn't a scheme to "eliminate" cache busting, it is only
> >trying to reduce it.
> >
> >Second, really unsophisticated customers just won't use it -- they'll
> >continue cache-busting.
> You don't understand my argument: the customers above are the ones who
> pay for each the hit.  They are not the ones who do the cache busting:
> it is the web advertising sites they pay who do the cache busting.
> These advertising sites are sophisticated enough to pick and deploy
> the mechanism which gets them the highest hit counts, which is cache
> busting until something better comes along.
> [...]
> >>I'm primarily worried about the filesystem read/write overhead needed
> >>to maintain the counters.  I would like to hear an implementer say
> >>that this is not a problem.
> >
> >Mine say it isn't.
> OK, that is good enough for me.
> Koen.
ASJzxc/;MKazsxc;/ljkZXDC /l;jkm  
Received on Thursday, 8 August 1996 09:02:43 UTC

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