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Re: using opaque strings to determine uniqueness

From: Jeffrey Mogul <mogul@pa.dec.com>
Date: Tue, 14 Nov 95 11:31:51 PST
Message-Id: <9511141931.AA04522@acetes.pa.dec.com>
To: Brian Behlendorf <brian@organic.com>
Cc: http-wg%cuckoo.hpl.hp.com@hplb.hpl.hp.com
Brian Behlendorf writes:
    While this sounds good in theory, I believe there are situations where 
    this breaks down. 
    Time    Action
    T+0:    client A connects through proxy1.bigISP.com to a server which 
	    contains a document which changes hourly, and has a CID of "X".
    T+1h:   client B connects through proxy2.bigISP.com to the same server,
	    and gets the hourly-changing document which now has a CID of "Y".
    T+1h1m: client B "refreshes" the page by doing an IMS request, but this
	    time goes through proxy1.bigISP.com, either because of round-robin
	    DNS or some sort of client load-balancing[*].
	    client B says "send me the document, unless it has the CID of 'Y'"
	    proxy1.bigISP.com sees its CID is "X", not "Y", and sends the OLD

    Now, you can say that the server is negligent for not adding "Expires" 
    headers, but at any rate this works now with true If-Modified-Since.

Hey folks, we're writing the spec, we should be able to require servers
(and proxies) to play by the rules.

If you recall, I suggested that an object without an explicit Expires:
header attached must always be validated by a proxy.  There are three
	Expires: missing
		validation required on every fetch from any cache
	Expires: "never"
		validation never required (immutable documents)
	Expires: <some timestamp>
		validation not required until <timestamp>, but
		always required after that.

The failure in your example could only happen if either
	(1) The server sets an explicit expiration date that is
	too far in the future
	(2) the caches are not obeying the spec.

I should also point out that the client should NOT be phrasing
its request as:
	"send me the document, unless it has the CID of 'Y'"
but rather it should be saying (i.e., the protocol should define
the requst as meaning):
	send me the document UNLESS my copy with CID=Y is valid
this puts the burden on the proxy to validate the client's copy,
rather than on the client to know by magic if CID=Y is still valid.

    And my general gut feeling is that when you design protocols they
    should map to users and application builder's metaphors as closely
    as possible - just asking "is this document different" is *much*
    different than asking "is this document more recent".

My feeling is that when we design protocols, they ought to
operate correctly.  If our users are naive about the foundations
of caching in distributed systems (something that even computer
scientists took several decades to understand), we should make
the caches transparent to them, not try to adopt some metaphor
that doesn't actually work.  Remember the solar system prior
to Copernicus?  It got extremely complicated to do astronomy
because the "users" were stuck in a geo-centric metaphor.

So users should not normally be placed in the position of having
to ask for "more recent documents".  The HTTP protocol, servers,
proxies, and clients should present a valid view of an object
whenever a user asks to see it.  Of course, we know that implementors
are only human, and implementations will have bugs.  That's what
the "reload" key is for, but it shouldn't be used nearly as often
as we do today.  That's definitely a bug.
    That said, I think what we need for doing conditional requests is a 
    general grammar to which we can apply file attributes.  Something like
But this implies that the clients and servers share a deep understanding
of the attributes of the objects.  What about objects that don't have
"modification times"?  What other attributes could be both useful and
generally supported?  I'm as much of a fan of file attributes as anyone
(after all, I did my PhD dissertation on the topic), but I don't think
we should be pushing HTTP in that direction.  HTTP is not a file
access protocol.

And if someone does come up with another use for attributes, are these
really the right thing to use for cache validation?  I think not.

Received on Tuesday, 14 November 1995 12:32:37 UTC

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