W3C home > Mailing lists > Public > ietf-http-wg-old@w3.org > September to December 1994

Re: Comments on HTTP draft [of 23 Nov 1994]

From: Chuck Shotton <cshotton@oac.hsc.uth.tmc.edu>
Date: Wed, 30 Nov 1994 07:47:27 -0600
Message-Id: <ab02299901021004f616@[129.106.201.2]>
To: "Roy T. Fielding" <fielding@avron.ICS.UCI.EDU>
Cc: http-wg%cuckoo.hpl.hp.com@hplb.hpl.hp.com
>>     It would seem to be appropriate that the HTTP protocol specify that
>>     Content-Length, in bytes, be Required--at least for Requests.
>
>I'd rather not go that far, but we may have to for HTTP/1.0.

There are certain cases where it ranges from impractical to impossible to
know the actual content-length of data being returned in an object-body. In
particular, some CGIs that generate their own HTTP response headers may
have trouble determining the length of their generated replies, especially
if the replies are generated on the fly and returned piece by piece (to
stdout, for example.) By the time the content-length is known, the header
portion of the response is long gone.

For responses from the server, it seems to be sufficient for the connection
close to indicate the end of the object-body, and everyone seems to support
this now. The real problem is with object-bodies being sent as part of a
client request, since it is inappropriate to signal the end by closing the
connection. In THIS case, it may be appropriate to make the content-length
header field mandatory.

So, the mandate for content-length may not be symmetrical, since servers
have a much harder time determining this value than clients. (Of course,
new clients with plug-in components a la CGI could present the same
problems that currently afflict servers with regard to calculating
content-length.)

>>     (b) Does the server have to read the headers (and data, if any) on a
>>     request?  For example, if the customizing filter/script doesn't need
>>     the information in order to determine the response, is the server
>>     permitted to leave the data unread, or could this embarrass some
>>     client(s) or TCP/IP stack(s)?
>
>The Request-Headers must be read, though implementations may want to optimize
>and assume that if the Request-Headers have not completed within the first
>read buffer, then the rest are not important.  Since that is only a problem
>for SOME BROKEN CLIENTS, most servers could successfully pretend to be
>conformant while implementing the optimization.  Obviously, if there is
>any data in the request, the server had better read it (unless the request
>line has already errored-out).

I agree with this approach. It is difficult to determine when
request-headers end if you don't assume that the first read buffer contains
the "meat" of the request. The only reason to continue beyond the first
read is if the method indicates additional data is on the way (POST, PUT,
etc.) Unfortunately, there isn't an easy way to codify this in a standard
that describes primarily syntax.

>>     (b) Since this is a new standard/document, surely it should specify
>>     a single Date/Time format, and only mention the others for
>>     compatibility/historical information?
>
>The document has a bit of history associated with it, but perhaps a stronger
>statement should be made.  I didn't want to be too forceful, however, since
>I am biased about the date format and wanted to test the water first.

I'd like to throw in my $.02 here, too. I agree that a single date/time
format is much easier to deal with. The last thing I want to waste my time
on is implementing a bunch of code to parse 3 different formats.

>> 4.3.3 Message-ID: [suggestion] Although the example shows a unique ID,
>>     it might be nice to encourage via the example a form of ID that
>>     includes the port number (if not 80), and even follows URL format.
>>     Perhaps:
>>
>>       Message-ID: <http://info.cern.ch:8080/9411251630.4256>
>
>The above is not a valid syntax for Message-IDs (no "@").  Even with it,
>the primary purpose of the Message-ID is to enable messages (particularly
>POSTs) via gateways.  Using the same format as many (most?) E-mail and
>USENET postal services can be very handy.

Given the purpose of the Message-ID, its structure and semantic
interpretation should be transparent to both clients and servers. The only
important point for the software is that the ID be unique. It's
interpretation is only for the benefit of humans. As with UseNet, it
matters little what the actual format is the Message-ID is as long as the
generator of the ID could work backwards from the value to find the
original message. Since it's a unique ID, a simple hash would always work.
Hence, there is no need for "smart numbers."

In short, as an implementor, if you'd like to return URL info as part of
your Message-ID, there doesn't appear to be anything in the standard that
precludes it and existing software certainly doesn't care. Requiring a
specific format is inappropriate, because not all hosts can guarantee
uniqueness using the same techniques. For example, on non-Unix hosts,
things like process IDs may not even exist. So requiring them as part of
any unique ID generated would be inappropriate. Examples in the standard
are fine for this header. A required format is unnecessary and
undesireable.

>> 4.3.4 MIME version: It is not at all clear why this is useful and
>>     strongly recommended if it is not an indication of full compliance
>>     with MIME.  One might argue that it should *not* be included unless
>>     MIME-compliance of the remainder of the header and data is
>>     guaranteed?
>
>I share that opinion, but then we run into legacy issues.

It does provide some indication that the headers aren't MIME version 2 or 3 or 4
headers. :) Seriously, I see that as the major value and not an indication
that the entire message conforms to the MIME standard.

>> 5.4 URI Note 1: What's 'default escaping'?  What characters may be
>>     'considered unsafe'?  The "should" (probably meant to be "shall"?)
>>     implies that a server must comply with these conditions, but they do
>>     not seem to be well defined.
>
>This section needs work, and may end up as separate sections for
>describing HTTP URLs, relative URLs, and URI's.

And www-url-encoded-form format?

>> 5.5.2 If-Modified-Since: This section implies that servers *must*
>>     implement this feature.  However, the last-modified-date might be
>>     unavailable, unreliable, or not applicable for some URIs.  In these
>>     cases (or indeed in any case), is the server permitted to return the
>>     object, despite the presence of the I-M-S header?
>
>Yes, but proper implementation (where appropriate) of the conditional
>GET protocol will be strongly recommended and required for all new servers.

Why required? There is no way to validate that this feature exists or is
supported by a server by exercising a server remotely. I could write a
server that modifies a document before every transmission or generates all
documents on the fly. The effect would be the same as if the server
completely ignored the if-modified-since header, since the document is
always modified. From a client's perspective, you have no way to determine
why the document is always returned.

I think this is one case where "required" is too strong a word (I also have
qualms about HEAD being "required", but that one can be validated remotely.
I only question HEAD's usefulness for most implementations.) Strongly
recommended is fine.


-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Chuck Shotton
cshotton@oac.hsc.uth.tmc.edu                           "I am NOT here."
Received on Wednesday, 30 November 1994 05:46:57 EST

This archive was generated by hypermail pre-2.1.9 : Wednesday, 24 September 2003 06:31:08 EDT